Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Timotheos]

There are those who see themselves as teachers and others who see themselves as seekers.


As a seeker, I prefer my teachers to be other seekers, sharing what they've learned and sharing that which still puzzles them.


Those who bang around saying, in effect, "I know it all! You should listen to me!" tend to turn me away.

he said didactic, I was was just reacting to what he said. I'm not saying that I know it all. I'm just repeating what the Bible says. I don't know how a person can read Romans 6:23 and come away from it thinking that the penalty for sin is not death, but eternal life in torment instead, and everyone gets eternal life, not just those in Christ. And THEN, mock me because I believe that the wages of sin is death, which is EXACTLY what Romans 6:23 says.

But I'm wrong and he's right. I'm too didactic.
Weird place this is...

 

[Tambora]

The teaching of this parable was not about the conditions of hell.

The teaching of this story is the contrast of the state of the righteous and the unrighteous AFTER death. (Which BTW already proves that "death" does not = "cease to exist").

It teaches that AFTER death the unrighteous in torment, with no prayers answered, and no hope of ever residing among the righteous again.

I think that you shouldn't take one passage out of Revelation and a parable about not trusting in riches and use them to delevop a doctrine that contradicts the rest of the Bible.

First of all, more than just one verse of Revelation has been shown to you.
The entire bible teaches truth and you should never tell anyone that certain books or stories of the bible should be excluded to present a case for a doctrine.

Secondly, you are doing the same as you accuse others of doing ---- picking your pet verses and ignoring other verses to establish your pet doctrinal view.

 

[Tambora]

I don't know how a person can read Romans 6:23 and come away from it thinking that the penalty for sin is not death

No one is disagreeing that the wages of sin is death.
It is your skewed concept of "death = cease to exist" that is being challenged.

 

[Timotheos]

The teaching of this story is the contrast of the state of the righteous and the unrighteous AFTER death. (Which BTW already proves that "death" does not = "cease to exist").

It teaches that AFTER death the unrighteous in torment, with no prayers answered, and no hope of ever residing among the righteous again.





First of all, more than just one verse of Revelation has been shown to you.
The entire bible teaches truth and you should never tell anyone that certain books or stories of the bible should be excluded to present a case for a doctrine.

Secondly, you are doing the same as you accuse others of doing ---- picking your pet verses and ignoring other verses to establish your pet doctrinal view.

I agree that there may be 3 passages supporting ET. There are dozens throughout the Bible that disprove it. And the 3 are far from unambiguous. I am am just suggesting that more care be taken. It is a basic rule of hermenuetics to interpret unclear passages in the light of more clear passages. You wouldn't jump straight to the BOR to defend any other doctrine would you? The Trinity, Virgin Conception, the Resurrection of Jesus, or Creation? It would be foolish to say "God is seven spirits, because Revelation 4:5 says 'These are the seven spirits of God'."

 

[Timotheos]

No one is disagreeing that the wages of sin is death.
It is your skewed concept of "death = cease to exist" that is being challenged.

Skewed? Okay. Death means continue to exist. Nobody ever dies, la la la, pass the punch. I had tea with my dead grandmother the other day, we had a lovely time.

Death means not being alive. If you think otherwise, it is up to you to prove it. The wages of sin is death. Death is the condition of not being alive. You can believe whatever it is you want to believe. But don't mock me for believing the truth.

Read Romans 6:23 and tell me how you can come up with the EXACT OPPOSITE of what it says.

 

[Aimiel]

Jesus didn't say that the second death was annihilation. He didn't say there is no ECT. If He did, we wouldn't believe ECT is real. He said it is, so we believe Him.

 

[Angel4Truth]

The trouble is, that is not what the Bible says about the lake of fire. According to the Bible, the lake of fire is the second death. Death is not eternal separation from God, death is eternal separation fron life.

Physical death is separation physically from other physical beings.

Spiritual death is separation from God the ultimate spirit, the giver of life.

The second death is eternal separation, just like the second birth (spiritual birth) is eternal life with Christ.

The same exact greek word is used for both translations of eternal, where it talks about eternal torment and where it talks about eternal life, there is no good reason to believe one means one thing and the other means something different. If that were the case, the same word would not be used for both being an eternal everlasting thing.

 

[bybee]

There are those who see themselves as teachers and others who see themselves as seekers.


As a seeker, I prefer my teachers to be other seekers, sharing what they've learned and sharing that which still puzzles them.


Those who bang around saying, in effect, "I know it all! You should listen to me!" tend to turn me away.

Yup!

 

[Aimiel]

Death to a human is a human no longer breathing. Many people think that's all there is to it. You cease to exist. That is bunk. We know that to be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord. Do you think those who are wicked get to stay in His Presence? I don't. I believe that they are tormented until judgment, when they'll be cast into their second death (the first death was hell) and be tormented in flames for eternity. To not exist would be Heaven, compared to what they will suffer.

 

[Totton Linnet]

what it really comes down to is they want you to suffer

You do not tell your kids not to play with fire because you want them to suffer. Not to warn is a dereliction of duty.

 

[Timotheos]

Jesus didn't say that the second death was annihilation. He didn't say there is no ECT. If He did, we wouldn't believe ECT is real. He said it is, so we believe Him.

No, you are wrong. Jesus did say there was no ECT. He said "fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna." Matthew 10:28, He said the way is wide that leads to destruction, Matthew 7:13. Jesus said that the wicked would be burned up like chaff. That's annihilation. That's complete destruction.

The reason you don't believe Him is because you don't want to believe Him.

 

[bybee]

"designed or intended to teach"

So you think I should just let others teach, even though they teach ECT contrary to what the Bible teaches? I suppose that's one way to go.

Is that what I said? Perhaps you ought to take your own advice and read what I said.
"Perhaps a little less didactic", at least in presentation.

 

[Timotheos]

Physical death is separation physically from other physical beings.

Spiritual death is separation from God the ultimate spirit, the giver of life.

The second death is eternal separation, just like the second birth (spiritual birth) is eternal life with Christ.

The same exact greek word is used for both translations of eternal, where it talks about eternal torment and where it talks about eternal life, there is no good reason to believe one means one thing and the other means something different. If that were the case, the same word would not be used for both being an eternal everlasting thing.

It does no good to just repeat the same argument after it has been refuted. Tell me why my refutation was in error. Tell me why I shouldn't believe that the lake of fire is the second death, as the Bible says. Tell me why death is not eternal.

 

[Totton Linnet]

they also reject reason and logic

We reject human reason and logic. Nobody using human reason or logic can gauge the heights and depths of God's mercy and grace as shown at the cross, nobody can by human reason or logic plumb the depths of God's wrath and anger at sin as displayed at the cross.

We must stick close to His word.

 

[Timotheos]

Is that what I said? Perhaps you ought to take your own advice and read what I said.
"Perhaps a little less didactic", at least in presentation.

So you don't like my posting style? I don't care.

I've been called a heretic, a liar, a deceiver, a deciever, a JW, A SDA, a cult member, a cult-like member, a baby, a crybaby, and too didactic. And you are criticizing MY posts? Why don't you come down on them? Everything I've said has been backed up by scripture. But who cares about that, as long as the majority position is held?

 

[Totton Linnet]

I might get an infraction for calling Satan a liar and a deceiver, his first lie was deny that God would carry out His threat, by doing so he strengthened Adam's hand to sin. This also is the effect of the annihilist deception, people shrug their shoulders at sin...

Germany was the leading light in bible criticism in the 19th/20th century, I believe it was a major factor in both world wars.

Who would say to the child killer "peace, peace, it will be well with you" annihilism is underlaid with the utmost cruelty towards mankind.

 

[Angel4Truth]

It does no good to just repeat the same argument after it has been refuted. Tell me why my refutation was in error. Tell me why I shouldn't believe that the lake of fire is the second death, as the Bible says. Tell me why death is not eternal.

Whats been refuted, you refuse to deal with the verse in revelation, you haven't refuted it.


See i would love to believe annihilation, i hate to think of anyone suffering eternally, hate it, i admit in my flesh its hard to believe it could happen because of the limits of my fallen flesh, but unlike you keep lying about people and saying that we want to see people suffer, or we just dont want to believe Him, that isnt true.

It would be easier to believe that for me knowing the love of God and His character, but I also know He is holy and just, and just like some people in this life, never show remorse, and cannot be rehabilitated, he would know who couldnt eternally and who will forever take the darkness over HIM.

So as much as i would LOVE to believe annihilation is the way it is, i cannot, because of that verse in revelation that CLEARLY tells me otherwise and I will not change His word to please my flesh.

So, if you can show me how it doesnt say what it does, then GO FOR IT.

I agree that the lake of the fire is the second death, no one is disagreeing with that, you are disagreeing with the rest of the verse saying specifically that all those who worshipped the beast will be tormented eternally, you say they will be destroyed, and that is NOT what the verse says.

You have yet to refute that, even though i told you myself i would believe in annihilation myself, were it NOT for that specific verse that specifically says otherwise.

Now if you wish to refute it, you need to take that verse and tell us WHY it doesnt mean what it clearly says and how (even though ive already told you that the same greek word translated as everlasting/eternal (forever) whichever english translation you use, is the same word in the greek that is used to mean all those things about eternal life in Christ. ) that verse doesnt mean what it says.

Tell us how, quote the verse and break it down and show us how God doesnt mean forever there, like He means about eternal life, when the greek is the same and the verse says they are tormented forever/everlasting/eternally.

Go. Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

(in some translations its eternity, and eternity of eternities in Aramaic to english“And the smoke of their torment ascends for the eternity of eternities, and there is no rest, day or night, for those who worship The Beast and its Image and for him who takes the mark of its name.”)

Now show how forever there means anything other than eternally, everlasting, forever and ever - and it also adds NO REST DAY OR NIGHT- now tell us how there is no rest day or night in being annihilated and try to make it work.

 

[Timotheos]

I might get an infraction for calling Satan a liar and a deceiver, his first lie was deny that God would carry out His threat, by doing so he strengthened Adam's hand to sin. This also is the effect of the annihilist deception, people shrug their shoulders at sin...

Germany was the leading light in bible criticism in the 19th/20th century, I believe it was a major factor in both world wars.

Who would say to the child killer "peace, peace, it will be well with you" annihilism is underlaid with the utmost cruelty towards mankind.

Let's see. The devil, the serpent said "surely you will not die."
I'm saying that the wages of sin is death, surely you will die, unless you repent.
But you say, "No, the wages of sin is not death, surely you will not die, you will be tormented in hell forever instead".

And you claim that I am repeating the lie of the Devil?

I never said to the child killer "peace, peace, it will be well with you." I have said "these pay the penalty of eternal destrution."

Now, I want you to stop lying about me. You know I will take action.

 

[steko]

Whats been refuted, you refuse to deal with the verse in revelation, you haven't refuted it.


See i would love to believe annihilation, i hate to think of anyone suffering eternally, hate it, i admit in my flesh its hard to believe it could happen because of the limits of my fallen flesh, but unlike you keep lying about people and saying that we want to see people suffer, or we just dont want to believe Him, that isnt true.

It would be easier to believe that for me knowing the love of God and His character, but I also know He is holy and just, and just like some people in this life, never show remorse, and cannot be rehabilitated, he would know who couldnt eternally and who will forever take the darkness over HIM.

So as much as i would LOVE to believe annihilation is the way it is, i cannot, because of that verse in revelation that CLEARLY tells me otherwise and I will not change His word to please my flesh.

So, if you can show me how it doesnt say what it does, then GO FOR IT.

I agree that the lake of the fire is the second death, no one is disagreeing with that, you are disagreeing with the rest of the verse saying specifically that all those who worshipped the beast will be tormented eternally, you say they will be destroyed, and that is NOT what the verse says.

You have yet to refute that, even though i told you myself i would believe in annihilation myself, were it NOT for that specific verse that specifically says otherwise.

Now if you wish to refute it, you need to take that verse and tell us WHY it doesnt mean what it clearly says and how (even though ive already told you that the same greek word translated as everlasting/eternal (forever) whichever english translation you use, is the same word in the greek that is used to mean all those things about eternal life in Christ. ) that verse doesnt mean what it says.

Tell us how, quote the verse and break it down and show us how God doesnt mean forever there, like He means about eternal life, when the greek is the same and the verse says they are tormented forever/everlasting/eternally.

Go. Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

(in some translations its eternity, and eternity of eternities in Aramaic to english“And the smoke of their torment ascends for the eternity of eternities, and there is no rest, day or night, for those who worship The Beast and its Image and for him who takes the mark of its name.”)

Now show how forever there means anything other than eternally, everlasting, forever and ever - and it also adds NO REST DAY OR NIGHT- now tell us how there is no rest day or night in being annihilated and try to make it work.

:thumb:

 

[Timotheos]

Whats been refuted, you refuse to deal with the verse in revelation, you haven't refuted it.


See i would love to believe annihilation, i hate to think of anyone suffering eternally, hate it, i admit in my flesh its hard to believe it could happen because of the limits of my fallen flesh, but unlike you keep lying about people and saying that we want to see people suffer, or we just dont want to believe Him, that isnt true.

It would be easier to believe that for me knowing the love of God and His character, but I also know He is holy and just, and just like some people in this life, never show remorse, and cannot be rehabilitated, he would know who couldnt eternally and who will forever take the darkness over HIM.

So as much as i would LOVE to believe annihilation is the way it is, i cannot, because of that verse in revelation that CLEARLY tells me otherwise and I will not change His word to please my flesh.

So, if you can show me how it doesnt say what it does, then GO FOR IT.

I agree that the lake of the fire is the second death, no one is disagreeing with that, you are disagreeing with the rest of the verse saying specifically that all those who worshipped the beast will be tormented eternally, you say they will be destroyed, and that is NOT what the verse says.

You have yet to refute that, even though i told you myself i would believe in annihilation myself, were it NOT for that specific verse that specifically says otherwise.

Now if you wish to refute it, you need to take that verse and tell us WHY it doesnt mean what it clearly says and how (even though ive already told you that the same greek word translated as everlasting/eternal (forever) whichever english translation you use, is the same word in the greek that is used to mean all those things about eternal life in Christ. ) that verse doesnt mean what it says.

Tell us how, quote the verse and break it down and show us how God doesnt mean forever there, like He means about eternal life, when the greek is the same and the verse says they are tormented forever/everlasting/eternally.

Go. Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

(in some translations its eternity, and eternity of eternities in Aramaic to english“And the smoke of their torment ascends for the eternity of eternities, and there is no rest, day or night, for those who worship The Beast and its Image and for him who takes the mark of its name.”)

Now show how forever there means anything other than eternally, everlasting, forever and ever - and it also adds NO REST DAY OR NIGHT- now tell us how there is no rest day or night in being annihilated and try to make it work.

Reread my previous post.

The lake of fire is the second death. That's what the Bible says. You can't deny it. Since the lake of fire is the second death, it is not eternal conscious torment. Period. They are sent to the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. This means they perish, they die. they die the second death. They are NOT kept alive. Why don't you understand this? The wages of sin is death, The wicked perish and are no more, The soul that sins will die, whosover doesn't believe will perish and will not have eternal life. It's plain english, and not difficult to understand.