Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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God's Truth
New member
You are the one who is reacting to pain from the truth.
I disagree. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. I believe that is true, so I agree with it. I'm not treating anyone harshly.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
back to terms.................
back to terms.................
As we've covered earlier, it all depends on how one defines 'death' and its 'process'. More pointedly it would be interpreting what Paul means when he says "the wages of sin is death", and within his own personal theology, since he shared much of his own opinions, besides what he 'believed' to be the word of the Lord (not to mention his 'letters' were just that, only later elevated to the status of 'scripture' by later compilers). In any case, that gets compounded with all the other books of the bible, - throw in the Hebrew, greek, latin and English word translations can foster con-fusion. Sure, "the soul that sins dies",....and that means different things to different folks.
Considering the universal laws that govern 'life' and 'death', they operate of themselves and to their ultimate ends. Beyond technicalities of what 'death' or 'life' is,...if one abides in harmony with truth and its laws,....there is peace, well-being, integrity of being and basic happiness. To operate or 'think' contrary to such laws is to 'transgress' such, which is 'sin', missing the mark of perfection/wholeness.
As per the law of compensation (karma)...one reaps what he sows (no matter what theological-twist you put on that principle).....all are 'judged' by their works. - the law of justice or compensation is perfect, and love/grace at last saves the soul, if the soul responds to love and repents to become 'at-one' with it. Then there is concord, peace, harmony, life (one will then experience or know the quality, being, condition and duration of it).
pj
back to terms.................
As we've covered earlier, it all depends on how one defines 'death' and its 'process'. More pointedly it would be interpreting what Paul means when he says "the wages of sin is death", and within his own personal theology, since he shared much of his own opinions, besides what he 'believed' to be the word of the Lord (not to mention his 'letters' were just that, only later elevated to the status of 'scripture' by later compilers). In any case, that gets compounded with all the other books of the bible, - throw in the Hebrew, greek, latin and English word translations can foster con-fusion. Sure, "the soul that sins dies",....and that means different things to different folks.
Considering the universal laws that govern 'life' and 'death', they operate of themselves and to their ultimate ends. Beyond technicalities of what 'death' or 'life' is,...if one abides in harmony with truth and its laws,....there is peace, well-being, integrity of being and basic happiness. To operate or 'think' contrary to such laws is to 'transgress' such, which is 'sin', missing the mark of perfection/wholeness.
As per the law of compensation (karma)...one reaps what he sows (no matter what theological-twist you put on that principle).....all are 'judged' by their works. - the law of justice or compensation is perfect, and love/grace at last saves the soul, if the soul responds to love and repents to become 'at-one' with it. Then there is concord, peace, harmony, life (one will then experience or know the quality, being, condition and duration of it).
pj
If a person doesn't know what death is, then they have bigger problems than this.
The Bible says that the wages of sin is death.
The Bible doesn't say that the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment in "Hell".
That's good enough for me.
Now back to the "Well, in this case the word death doesn't really mean death because the abstract articulated matrix of the designated receptor facility in the ancient near east with respect to the yada yada yada..."
The Bible says that the wages of sin is death.
The Bible doesn't say that the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment in "Hell".
That's good enough for me.
Now back to the "Well, in this case the word death doesn't really mean death because the abstract articulated matrix of the designated receptor facility in the ancient near east with respect to the yada yada yada..."
God's Truth
New member
Luke 8:52 Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. "Stop wailing," Jesus said. "She is not dead but asleep."
Matthew 9:24 he said, "Go away. The girl is not dead but asleep." But they laughed at him.
Luke 8:53 They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead.
Luke 8:55 Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up. Then Jesus told them to give her something to eat.
John 11:13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
Thank you. Now do you think these passages mean that the girl and Lazarus were not really dead? I believe that the girl and Lazarus were really dead and Jesus Christ, being fully God and having all of the power over life and death, was able to return them to life.
None of the passages you gave actually said "Dead people aren't really dead, they are alive". If the girl was merely asleep, why couldn't anyone except Jesus wake her up? The answer is that they couldn't raise the dead, only God can raise the dead. She was not merely asleep, she was literally dead. Jesus said she was asleep in order to make a point to them. It is as easy for God to return life to the dead as it is for anyone else to wake up a sleeping person.
Dear God's Truth,
We cannot raise the dead back to life, but Jesus and God can. It is written, 'many shall sleep in the dust of the earth' meaning they are dead, but can be brought back to life by Jesus (when He returns). He does not mean sleeping for 8 hours, not that type of sleep. It is written in Daniel 12:2, "and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
But, Daniel 12:3 is even more inspiring. "And they that be/are wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament/heaven (live on a star); and they that turn many to righteousness shall be as the STARS forever and EVER."
Hope this helps you both out, you God's Truth, and Timotheus.
May Jesus Raise You In The Rapture!
MichaelC
We cannot raise the dead back to life, but Jesus and God can. It is written, 'many shall sleep in the dust of the earth' meaning they are dead, but can be brought back to life by Jesus (when He returns). He does not mean sleeping for 8 hours, not that type of sleep. It is written in Daniel 12:2, "and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
But, Daniel 12:3 is even more inspiring. "And they that be/are wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament/heaven (live on a star); and they that turn many to righteousness shall be as the STARS forever and EVER."
Hope this helps you both out, you God's Truth, and Timotheus.
May Jesus Raise You In The Rapture!
MichaelC
Dear Timotheos,
That printed out twice (my last post). I can delete it if you like. Just let me know. Now for ECT. See Rev. 20:12, 'And I saw the dead, small and great...and death and hell (and the sea) and they were delivered up, and they were judged according to their works (faith and love included). And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.' See the actual verses in the KJV Bible. The New KJV isn't worth the paper it's printed on, IMO. Yes, even those who die are in danger of the lake of fire, so there is ECT.
Also, you will notice in Luke 16:24, "and he cried, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he might dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue ; for I am tormented in this flame." See the verse. It also means that ECT is real. If you think you're going to sin your butt of and get off with just dying an earthly death, you are very wrong. It's tricky, but you've got to think about it.
God Keep You From The Evil One,
MichaelC
That printed out twice (my last post). I can delete it if you like. Just let me know. Now for ECT. See Rev. 20:12, 'And I saw the dead, small and great...and death and hell (and the sea) and they were delivered up, and they were judged according to their works (faith and love included). And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.' See the actual verses in the KJV Bible. The New KJV isn't worth the paper it's printed on, IMO. Yes, even those who die are in danger of the lake of fire, so there is ECT.
Also, you will notice in Luke 16:24, "and he cried, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he might dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue ; for I am tormented in this flame." See the verse. It also means that ECT is real. If you think you're going to sin your butt of and get off with just dying an earthly death, you are very wrong. It's tricky, but you've got to think about it.
God Keep You From The Evil One,
MichaelC
Dear All,
I don't know why I am sending two copies of my posts. I can delete them Timotheos if you ask me.
Thanks,
Michael
I don't know why I am sending two copies of my posts. I can delete them Timotheos if you ask me.
Thanks,
Michael
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
defining 'death' is pivotal here.......
defining 'death' is pivotal here.......
- Its still an issue of how one defines 'death'. So the debate on ECT goes in circular motion. No matter, as I've shared before,...since the law of karma (action) determines what a person experiences thru cause and effect, there being the natural consequence or results for ones condition of mind, freedom of choice and actions. 'Sin', brought to its full or final fruition fosters 'death', yes....since such a transgression of law imposes its own penalty. - every seed must bear the fruit of its own kind.
ECT can be rejected on other grounds than an 'annihilationist' point of view, since it is insane, whether the soul endures a conscious 'death' (still conscious but separated from reality, love, life) or undergoes a complete and final dissolution of conscious existence as a living entity. At which point it might be wise to invest in how to avoid suffering any kind of 'death' (freedom from 'sin'), and abide in the Spirit of 'God' which is life and peace. This 'minding' of the Spirit of 'God' within one's own soul (abiding in God-consciousness), is the key essential, in which the seed of immortality is. - all else are various speculations or con-fusions.
pj
defining 'death' is pivotal here.......
- Its still an issue of how one defines 'death'. So the debate on ECT goes in circular motion. No matter, as I've shared before,...since the law of karma (action) determines what a person experiences thru cause and effect, there being the natural consequence or results for ones condition of mind, freedom of choice and actions. 'Sin', brought to its full or final fruition fosters 'death', yes....since such a transgression of law imposes its own penalty. - every seed must bear the fruit of its own kind.ECT can be rejected on other grounds than an 'annihilationist' point of view, since it is insane, whether the soul endures a conscious 'death' (still conscious but separated from reality, love, life) or undergoes a complete and final dissolution of conscious existence as a living entity. At which point it might be wise to invest in how to avoid suffering any kind of 'death' (freedom from 'sin'), and abide in the Spirit of 'God' which is life and peace. This 'minding' of the Spirit of 'God' within one's own soul (abiding in God-consciousness), is the key essential, in which the seed of immortality is. - all else are various speculations or con-fusions.
pj
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
figures of speech......
figures of speech......
'Death' and 'life'; 'sleep' and 'resurrection' are metaphors as well, denoting various conditions or states of being. It only appears to us that those who are 'dead' are 'asleep', since the body is without life or animation. The 'resurrection' as well does not necessarily mean a 'physical' resurrection, but connotes essentially a psychological/spiritual one. Note that 'stars' as well are symbolic language, for we shall shine as stars.
pj
figures of speech......
'Death' and 'life'; 'sleep' and 'resurrection' are metaphors as well, denoting various conditions or states of being. It only appears to us that those who are 'dead' are 'asleep', since the body is without life or animation. The 'resurrection' as well does not necessarily mean a 'physical' resurrection, but connotes essentially a psychological/spiritual one. Note that 'stars' as well are symbolic language, for we shall shine as stars.
pj
Dear freelight,
No, I mean that we will be on the morning star, Venus. Jesus said, 'I go to prepare a place for you. In my Father's house are many mansions...' Jesus said, "I am the bright and morning star (Venus). (See Rev. 2:28 and Rev. 22:16). When we die, those who are ready to go to heaven, their souls and spirits are given a heavenly body, where you can move quickly, because an earthly body inhibited us by legs to run on only. I hope you understand now. It is written somewhere, 'the stars are the warehouses of angels.' I don't know if I saw it in the KJV Bible or the Psuedopigrapha. There are alot of angels on each star.
God's Very Best For You, Buddy,
Michael
No, I mean that we will be on the morning star, Venus. Jesus said, 'I go to prepare a place for you. In my Father's house are many mansions...' Jesus said, "I am the bright and morning star (Venus). (See Rev. 2:28 and Rev. 22:16). When we die, those who are ready to go to heaven, their souls and spirits are given a heavenly body, where you can move quickly, because an earthly body inhibited us by legs to run on only. I hope you understand now. It is written somewhere, 'the stars are the warehouses of angels.' I don't know if I saw it in the KJV Bible or the Psuedopigrapha. There are alot of angels on each star.
God's Very Best For You, Buddy,
Michael
Dear All,
The lake of fire is our Sun, where Lucifer is and where the beast (Uri Geller, Israeli) and false prophet (Jean-Pierre Girard, Frenchman) are going, and also Satan is going, along with those who don't make it in the Book of Life. See Rev. 20:4, 5. And whenever our Sun should become a black hole, then another younger Sun will be provided for the souls in our present Sun. You can count on that the devil will burn forever and ever. Like permanently. That which is determined shall be done.
Now, hell is the center of our earth, the bottomless pit, where it is very hot, even though it is hotter on the Sun, lots of magma and lava in hell. Everyone thinks they are on top of the earth because of gravity, so that is why it's called the bottomless pit, because it has a top and center, but no bottom. It is symbolic. That is where Satan will be locked away for 1,000 years. I don't want to lay too much on you all, so I'll close for now.
God Bless And KEEP You ALL,
Michael
The lake of fire is our Sun, where Lucifer is and where the beast (Uri Geller, Israeli) and false prophet (Jean-Pierre Girard, Frenchman) are going, and also Satan is going, along with those who don't make it in the Book of Life. See Rev. 20:4, 5. And whenever our Sun should become a black hole, then another younger Sun will be provided for the souls in our present Sun. You can count on that the devil will burn forever and ever. Like permanently. That which is determined shall be done.
Now, hell is the center of our earth, the bottomless pit, where it is very hot, even though it is hotter on the Sun, lots of magma and lava in hell. Everyone thinks they are on top of the earth because of gravity, so that is why it's called the bottomless pit, because it has a top and center, but no bottom. It is symbolic. That is where Satan will be locked away for 1,000 years. I don't want to lay too much on you all, so I'll close for now.
God Bless And KEEP You ALL,
Michael
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
considering 'measures'.....
considering 'measures'.....
It would be practical to do so without anyone's permission, would it not?
But the problems with ECT have been elucidated here already. Would you condemn your living children to an eternity of endless torture, pain and suffering, from which there is no relief or remedy? Is that the nature, will and character of love?
Okay, lets compare the 2 translations -
You will note that they say the same thing, except that the NKJV provides additional foot-notes sharing what is found in other variant manuscripts so one can compare and enhance his knowledge of the text and its 'interpretation'.
I have a giant print center column reference Thomas Nelson NKJV edition, a very awesome bible IMO. I see no reason to reject the NKJV, since it accentuates one's study.
Note that this is a 'parable'. - a 'story' given to illustrate a point of the teacher. Also note there is no indication in the parable that the sufferer's torment is eternal. We would also consider that the law of compensation or 'law of justice' (call it karma as well) metes out only a penalty commensurate to the severity of the sin committed (measure for measure), so that once one has paid up to the last farthing, (reaped what he was sown)...there is no more suffering the penalty for that sin, once its penalty has been paid. One cannot endure an 'eternal' punishment for a 'temporal' sin. There is no reason to believe in ECT, which is reading more into the text than necessary. One reaps as he sows, 'measure for measure'. This is consistent with natural law.
Of course, no one escapes the law of karma ('actions' and their consequences).
pj
considering 'measures'.....
It would be practical to do so without anyone's permission, would it not?
But the problems with ECT have been elucidated here already. Would you condemn your living children to an eternity of endless torture, pain and suffering, from which there is no relief or remedy? Is that the nature, will and character of love?
Okay, lets compare the 2 translations -
You will note that they say the same thing, except that the NKJV provides additional foot-notes sharing what is found in other variant manuscripts so one can compare and enhance his knowledge of the text and its 'interpretation'.
I have a giant print center column reference Thomas Nelson NKJV edition, a very awesome bible IMO. I see no reason to reject the NKJV, since it accentuates one's study.
Note that this is a 'parable'. - a 'story' given to illustrate a point of the teacher. Also note there is no indication in the parable that the sufferer's torment is eternal. We would also consider that the law of compensation or 'law of justice' (call it karma as well) metes out only a penalty commensurate to the severity of the sin committed (measure for measure), so that once one has paid up to the last farthing, (reaped what he was sown)...there is no more suffering the penalty for that sin, once its penalty has been paid. One cannot endure an 'eternal' punishment for a 'temporal' sin. There is no reason to believe in ECT, which is reading more into the text than necessary. One reaps as he sows, 'measure for measure'. This is consistent with natural law.
Of course, no one escapes the law of karma ('actions' and their consequences).
pj
Dear freelight,
No, I would not condemn my children to such. Jesus said we all must be like children to enter heaven, so all of the children, even certain adults, are safe and go to heaven.
I've noticed that the NKJV doesn't translate well, especially Isaiah 45:7. My KJV has a nice center reference also.
Yes, it is a parable, but in Rev. 19:20, it says that those who received the mark of the beast were thrown in the lake of fire and Rev. 20:10 says that the beast, false prophet and Satan shall be there forever. They are His children, believe it or not. So were Hitler, Mussolini, even Pharoah of Egypt, or Khomeini or bin Laden. I would think that God, being as huge-hearted as He is, will send very few to the lake of fire, since they will be judged according to their works and also, man against Satan is hardly a fair match. So I'm sure God will take that into plenty of consideration. I see that if Hell is giving up those that are in it, then many of those in Hell could be forgiven. Only God knows.
And there is no mention of it all being a different time for each soul to spend in the Lake of Fire as if it were jail.
Also, those who turn many to righteousness Shall BE as the stars forever and ever. (Daniel 12:3). You can bet on it.
There is no problem unless you feel you are not keeping His commandments, which are your works. Loving God, and loving each other are the most important. The others fall into place here and there.
Thanks for your time and letting me bend your ear some. May God Be With You!!
Michael
No, I would not condemn my children to such. Jesus said we all must be like children to enter heaven, so all of the children, even certain adults, are safe and go to heaven.
I've noticed that the NKJV doesn't translate well, especially Isaiah 45:7. My KJV has a nice center reference also.
Yes, it is a parable, but in Rev. 19:20, it says that those who received the mark of the beast were thrown in the lake of fire and Rev. 20:10 says that the beast, false prophet and Satan shall be there forever. They are His children, believe it or not. So were Hitler, Mussolini, even Pharoah of Egypt, or Khomeini or bin Laden. I would think that God, being as huge-hearted as He is, will send very few to the lake of fire, since they will be judged according to their works and also, man against Satan is hardly a fair match. So I'm sure God will take that into plenty of consideration. I see that if Hell is giving up those that are in it, then many of those in Hell could be forgiven. Only God knows.
And there is no mention of it all being a different time for each soul to spend in the Lake of Fire as if it were jail.
Also, those who turn many to righteousness Shall BE as the stars forever and ever. (Daniel 12:3). You can bet on it.
There is no problem unless you feel you are not keeping His commandments, which are your works. Loving God, and loving each other are the most important. The others fall into place here and there.
Thanks for your time and letting me bend your ear some. May God Be With You!!
Michael
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Consider, though, Genesis 3:19;
"By the sweat of your brow
Shall you get bread to eat,
Until you return to the ground-
For from it you were taken.
For dust you are, And to dust you shall return."
(From the Jewish Study Bible)
This is annihilation, no more existence as a human but a return to the elements.
Dear bybee,
That is only for the body or carcass. It does not apply to the soul/spirit within that person. Thanks, hon!!
I remember you as one who first welcomed me to TOL. It is a great site. I don't think the Internet has anything better. God Bless You Immensely,
MichaelC
That is only for the body or carcass. It does not apply to the soul/spirit within that person. Thanks, hon!!
I remember you as one who first welcomed me to TOL. It is a great site. I don't think the Internet has anything better. God Bless You Immensely,
MichaelC
It is not in keeping with a Loving God to relish eternal punishment when it is not necessary. To die and be no more, is that not punishment enough?
Blessings to you also.