Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[MichaelCadry]

There are two salvific resurrections. There is the resurrection at the coming of Christ.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. (1 Corinthians 15:22-23)​

And then after the millennium is the second resurrection.

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:5)​

The Book of Life is open to those in the second resurrection based on their acceptance of Christ's salvation. Only those who reject Christ will suffer a second death.

Dear Jamie,

Yes, you've got it. Things are more involved now aren't they. Surely the wages of sin are death. But we can read in Rev. 20:13, that death and hell, and the sea shall give up those in them and they will all be judged according to their works. That doesn't necessarily mean work you did at the church, etc. It means how good you were to other people, did you LOVE God, do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God and the Messiah. Those are good works. Posts you make on this thread are good works if you say the right things, you might help someone in their life to improve. They are ALL works. So don't be troubled. It says death and hell were thrown into the lake of fire, where the beast and false prophet, and Satan are. No more death or hell!!

In Christ's Love Forever, Jamie,

Michael

:surf:

 

[MichaelCadry]

Is capital punishment eternal?

Is death just a moment in time? or a continuing state?

Dear Oatmeal,

There are details involved. Read some of the posts here. It's all more involved that what you've stated so far.

God Bless You!!

Michael

 

[Ben Masada]

No, the doctrine of eternal conscious torment is not Biblical. To be tormented one must be in the possession of his or her own body. Since there is no bodily resurrection, there can't be torment in the realm of the grave.

 

[rstrats]

CatholicCrusader,

re: "Your spirit is eternal and will never die."

Any thoughts on what your spirit was doing before your mother gave birth to you?

 

[Timotheos]

Dear Timotheus,

I am thinking God's Truth is referring to "and the rest of the dead did not live AGAIN until the 1,000 years were fulfilled." See Rev. 20:3.

In God's Love,

Michael

I'm an "Amillie".

If we have to figure out the times of the millennium, we will be here until Doomsday. :chuckle:

 

[Lazy afternoon]

I'm an "Amillie".

If we have to figure out the times of the millennium, we will be here until Doomsday. :chuckle:

Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

 

[freelight]

depends on who you ask.......

depends on who you ask.......

Is capital punishment eternal?

Is death just a moment in time? or a continuing state?

We've addressed Matthew 25:46 here.

Capital punishment on this plane of existence is not 'eternal', but only a forced death of the physical organism. It is questionable that such is even beneficial to the soul itself, let alone being a deterrent to others to avoid crime.

As far as death being just a moment in time or continuing state, we've covered that here. It depends on how one defines 'death', and how a soul 'dies' as the result of 'sin', which makes for a complex subject with different points of view. Thats the whole 'kit n kaboodle' here.



pj

 

[Zeke]

We've addressed Matthew 25:46 here.

Capital punishment on this plane of existence is not 'eternal', but only a forced death of the physical organism. It is questionable that such is even beneficial to the soul itself, let alone being a deterrent to others to avoid crime.

As far as death being just a moment in time or continuing state, we've covered that here. It depends on how one defines 'death', and how a soul 'dies' as the result of 'sin', which makes for a complex subject with different points of view. That the whole 'kit n kaboodle' here.



pj

Plus what about the ability of the law of condemnation to follow one after this death, if one uses the christian religions approved scripture then Romans seven would say the old husband the law, a deceiver of the flesh is counted as being dead, along with the flesh it deceived and condemned.

And Paul at this point separated himself from the actions taken by his deceived flesh, so this is a metaphor in the which no one really died, the OT law is the deceiver (satan the god of the flesh, husband) of the flesh then and now if taken literally.

 

[God's Truth]

I did answer your question.



The resurrection is when the dead are raised to life. Words have meanings.

Jesus says they are sleeping. Are people who sleep dead?

 

[God's Truth]

Nature has equipped me rather adequately with faculties to discern, understand and interpret things. Just what Jesus taught regarding ECT is the subject here, however even that is fraught with meaning-variables besides other passages from the Bible that are compounded towards the issue. The subject has been exhausted really, unless particular points have been re-evaluated and considered.

You cannot speak about what Jesus says with knowledge unless you put to practice what he says.

I've not blasphemed 'God' at all, but respected his love, mercy and real justice. Considering principles that 'God' must abide by since he is the 'God' of principle, their very source...is fundamental here. The two of justice and mercy are foundational here, and 'God' must by definition of his character uphold both thru love and wisdom. Sadism, cruelty, insanity are not the methods of 'God'.

You do not know God. God says those who say they know Him but do not do what He says is a liar.

What Jesus is speaking of here is the essence of his teachings based in love, ethical living, spiritual communion. I don't see any ECT in such a context.

If you are to obey Jesus, then you would not believe in many of the things that you do.

This is only from an 'annihilationist' point of view, where the 'second death' is a final/eternal distintegration of that individual life stream. That's only one alternative. This would be for souls that make a final and eternal choice (having exhausted all helps) for de-struction, whereby they truly are 'expunged' from existence as a functioning entity (wiped out, made extinct, dissolved). I've said before that this may have certain ontological/metaphysical difficulties as far as the nature of the soul is concerned by those school that hold spirit-souls are more or less 'immortal' (eternal entities).

If we look at 'sin' or 'iniquity' in its most pure essence, if it results in death, it equates to a 'negation' or 'absence' of the life-principle. If the soul that sins 'dies',....it is the description of this 'death' that is being debated here. The annihilist view holds that the second death is a final consummation of death, a total disintegration. In this, the wholly wicked who bear the full fruit of their iniquity, truly perish.

You did not answer my question.

What is written is subject to 'interpretation', and translated differently by minds of different dispositions and aptitudes. Some views are better informed than others, and some trails might end in an honest "I don't know"...but a true student will stay open to research matters.

I believe God’s Truth can be found. There just not many who will find it.

 

[God's Truth]

Like freelight has said there isn't much more to say that hasn't already
been, so I hope you come to understand that your wrong on this, because you are.

1 John 4:18.

That scripture is about if you love you do not need to fear.

Those who do not act in love should fear.

 

[God's Truth]

There are two salvific resurrections. There is the resurrection at the coming of Christ.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. (1 Corinthians 15:22-23)​

And then after the millennium is the second resurrection.

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:5)​

The Book of Life is open to those in the second resurrection based on their acceptance of Christ's salvation. Only those who reject Christ will suffer a second death.

Scriptures that support the first resurrection, that of our spirits going to heaven with Jesus, before we die a physical death…

1 Corinthians 6:17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

John 6:56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.

Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Colossians 3:3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 2:11
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.


The second resurrection is when Jesus resurrects everyone.

 

[God's Truth]

Faith vs unbelief, receiving or rejecting the person and work of Christ determines eternal destiny, not works. Atheists can do good works, while theists may do none. God's standard is perfection and nothing can be added to the shed blood of Christ. Our works are like filthy rags. Salvation is by grace through faith apart from works. Denying this displays rejection of the gospel, Romans, Galatians, Hebrews, etc.

Works determine rewards/loss of rewards for the believer (stewardship; Bema Seat of Christ judgment). Works are the fruit of the root of faith.

Unbeliever's sins and works will condemn them at the GWT.

You do not speak what the scriptures say.

Revelation 14:12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.


Revelation 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear Gods Truth,

People who are sleeping are not dead. We sleep every night. Some people who are dead are sleeping, waiting for the first resurrection, when Jesus returns. Also, notice above that it is not "for their deeds will follow them." It should be "for their 'works' follow them." Working for God, you do things as the angels do, by helping other people on earth. You'll see in the future. Some answers we just won't have until we meet the Lord and ask Him. Whatever questions that angels can't answer, the Lord will answer, if He wants to.

Praise God and Jesus, and the Holy Spirit!!!

Michael

 

[Timotheos]

Jesus says they are sleeping. Are people who sleep dead?

No. Sleeping people are not dead. People who refuse to see are not literally blind either, but might as well be.

So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead..." John 11:14

 

[chrysostom]

they want you to suffer

 

[Timotheos]

they want you to suffer

I know, they just react.

When I was a kid, I had a Golden Retriever. He used to get sand burrs in his hair and I would have to pull the burrs out. I could see that pulling out the burrs irritated him, but I didn't want to just leave the burrs in. I tried to be as gentle as I could be. If the burrs were in a tender place, I would leave them in for a while, eventually I could work all of the burrs out.

The false dogma of ECT is like a burr in the coat of the church. I am trying to get the burrs out, but it causes pain to those who are used to the burr. So they react in pain, thinking I am the one causing the pain. They bite, but it is just a reaction to the pain of truth.

 

[God's Truth]

No. Sleeping people are not dead. People who refuse to see are not literally blind either, but might as well be.

So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead..." John 11:14

The dead being asleep, the people being blind...these are about spiritual things.

You are the one who said dead is dead. The scriptures prove that dead is not literally dead as by an earthly standard.

 

[God's Truth]

Dear Gods Truth,

People who are sleeping are not dead. We sleep every night. Some people who are dead are sleeping, waiting for the first resurrection, when Jesus returns. Also, notice above that it is not "for their deeds will follow them." It should be "for their 'works' follow them." Working for God, you do things as the angels do, by helping other people on earth. You'll see in the future. Some answers we just won't have until we meet the Lord and ask Him. Whatever questions that angels can't answer, the Lord will answer, if He wants to.

Praise God and Jesus, and the Holy Spirit!!!

Michael

Michael,
Works and deeds mean the same thing.

 

[God's Truth]

they want you to suffer

Why would I want anyone to suffer? Do you just say anything?