Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Reconsider........
Reconsider........
Reason and logic demands a figurative approach in such a context, since ECT is problematic and inconsistent in principle.
Back to semantics. First of all, nothing can exist independent of 'God'....and it remains speculative just how (or to what degree) a sentient being can be 'seperate' from 'God' (or remain in a hell-like state), since 'God' is what gives that conscious entity its very 'life' or sense of existence. We come back to the relative scale of various states or conditions of 'death' or 'life' that any soul can experience anywhere at any time.
Even now, you can assume some souls are more or less 'dead' or 'alive' by their condition of purity or corruption while in the physical body, to say nothing of a spiritual state or realm of existence where souls may experience like conditions. The Bible is rather limited on its description of both 'life' and 'death' since these are subject to human language and interpretation - it becomes even more blurred as one projects it to some future time or dispensation.
You have an idea of 'seperation' assumed as 'death'. Thats it. Admit its your 'opinion' and 'interpretation'. Furthermore you embrace all the problems that ECT encroaches on 'God' when you accept this 'belief'....so you're responsible for the effects it may have on you. I'd seriously reconsider your 'position'.
pj
Reconsider........
Reason and logic demands a figurative approach in such a context, since ECT is problematic and inconsistent in principle.
Back to semantics. First of all, nothing can exist independent of 'God'....and it remains speculative just how (or to what degree) a sentient being can be 'seperate' from 'God' (or remain in a hell-like state), since 'God' is what gives that conscious entity its very 'life' or sense of existence. We come back to the relative scale of various states or conditions of 'death' or 'life' that any soul can experience anywhere at any time.
Even now, you can assume some souls are more or less 'dead' or 'alive' by their condition of purity or corruption while in the physical body, to say nothing of a spiritual state or realm of existence where souls may experience like conditions. The Bible is rather limited on its description of both 'life' and 'death' since these are subject to human language and interpretation - it becomes even more blurred as one projects it to some future time or dispensation.
You have an idea of 'seperation' assumed as 'death'. Thats it. Admit its your 'opinion' and 'interpretation'. Furthermore you embrace all the problems that ECT encroaches on 'God' when you accept this 'belief'....so you're responsible for the effects it may have on you. I'd seriously reconsider your 'position'.
pj
Punishment before annialation is the only Biblical view.
LA
LA
An example-
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Now how did the rich man get from the grave into hellfire?
It can only be by his being raised from the dead AND the judgment is past.
The other thing to note is that Lazarus and Abraham are in observation of the rich mans torment.---
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
The only day and night is from Christs coming until the end.
Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
So we can look into scripture to see that this picture of Lazarus is not the end of the story. It is not something which continues forever without end.
It gives fuel to understanding this verse better--
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
LA
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Now how did the rich man get from the grave into hellfire?
It can only be by his being raised from the dead AND the judgment is past.
The other thing to note is that Lazarus and Abraham are in observation of the rich mans torment.---
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
The only day and night is from Christs coming until the end.
Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
So we can look into scripture to see that this picture of Lazarus is not the end of the story. It is not something which continues forever without end.
It gives fuel to understanding this verse better--
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
LA
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
its all in your mind........
its all in your mind........
This is possible if squinching everything into a so called biblical dispensational format
- however,....in the karmic playground...we are always reaping what we sow,...for the law of compensation(cause/effect, action/re-action) cannot be avoided unless there is no longer anything within the soul that can be 'conditioned' or 'affected'...or if the law of karma is wholly transcended by identifying with Spirit (love) itself, which is pure, untainted and unconditional in nature.
In any case,.....a soul that is wholly expunged or terminated, no longer exists, so it is no longer 'punished' since there is nothing left for the effect of karma to work upon, or some anterior 'god' to do any punishing. Its so infantile to assume a 'god' out there is keeping souls in a lake of fire somewhere or 'state of endless torture' - one would think these primitive beliefs died in the Dark Ages.
As formerly stated, one cannot prove souls are stuck somewhere for eternity in a state of torment (now or in any future state)....and we could also claim that nowhere is there proof that souls are totally annihilated from existence,.....as no empirical proof, beyond speculating or hypothesizing exists...to establish such - we hold our opinions or interpretations on the matter,....and that is just what they are....our own formed opinions. It is being honest to admit such.
pj
its all in your mind........
This is possible if squinching everything into a so called biblical dispensational format
- however,....in the karmic playground...we are always reaping what we sow,...for the law of compensation(cause/effect, action/re-action) cannot be avoided unless there is no longer anything within the soul that can be 'conditioned' or 'affected'...or if the law of karma is wholly transcended by identifying with Spirit (love) itself, which is pure, untainted and unconditional in nature.In any case,.....a soul that is wholly expunged or terminated, no longer exists, so it is no longer 'punished' since there is nothing left for the effect of karma to work upon, or some anterior 'god' to do any punishing. Its so infantile to assume a 'god' out there is keeping souls in a lake of fire somewhere or 'state of endless torture' - one would think these primitive beliefs died in the Dark Ages.
As formerly stated, one cannot prove souls are stuck somewhere for eternity in a state of torment (now or in any future state)....and we could also claim that nowhere is there proof that souls are totally annihilated from existence,.....as no empirical proof, beyond speculating or hypothesizing exists...to establish such
- we hold our opinions or interpretations on the matter,....and that is just what they are....our own formed opinions. It is being honest to admit such.pj
This is possible if squinching everything into a so called biblical dispensational format
In any case,.....a soul that is wholly expunged or terminated, no longer exists, so it is no longer 'punished' since there is nothing left for the effect of karma to work upon, or some anterior 'god' to do any punishing. Its so infantile to assume a 'god' out there is keeping souls in a lake of fire somewhere or 'state of endless torture' - one would think these primitive beliefs died in the Dark Ages.
As formerly stated, one cannot prove souls are stuck somewhere for eternity in a state of torment (now or in any future state)....and we could also claim that nowhere is there proof that souls are totally annihilated from existence,.....as no empirical proof, beyond speculating or hypothesizing exists...to establish such
pj
Wrong.
A soul is a life.
When men die they are without soul except in the eyes of God who remembers them.
There is punishment before annialation taught in the Bible, and that all wicked men will be raised from the dead to be judged and punished and then destroyed forever, never to exist again.
It is not true that all men receive punishment for their sins in this life.
1Ti 5:24 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.
1Ti 5:25 Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.
Your spiritualism is an opposite error to the ECT view but serving the same devil.
Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
LA
God's Truth
New member
Karma is an evil teaching. With your evil beliefs, those who are born with defects are being justly punished, or those with bad happenings in their lives deserve it, what a horrible belief you have chosen to follow.This is possible if squinching everything into a so called biblical dispensational format
In any case,.....a soul that is wholly expunged or terminated, no longer exists, so it is no longer 'punished' since there is nothing left for the effect of karma to work upon, or some anterior 'god' to do any punishing. Its so infantile to assume a 'god' out there is keeping souls in a lake of fire somewhere or 'state of endless torture' - one would think these primitive beliefs died in the Dark Ages.
As formerly stated, one cannot prove souls are stuck somewhere for eternity in a state of torment (now or in any future state)....and we could also claim that nowhere is there proof that souls are totally annihilated from existence,.....as no empirical proof, beyond speculating or hypothesizing exists...to establish such
pj
God's Truth
New member
The people in this thread that go against an eternal punishment being that of suffering forever in fire, they are the ones who do not believe in the life of the spirit after the death of the physical body. They cannot grasp life, how can they grasp eternal punishment being actual punishment?
That's funny. Death is the eternal punishment. We can grasp eternal punishment. You can't grasp that death is actually a punishment because you don't really believe there IS any death. The serpent said "surely you will not die". And you believe him.
The biblical, historical, orthodox view is not annihilationism. There are several views proposed, so your view is not the only view. Your view puts your wishes and reason above revelation.
I don't see a point of punishing and wiping the being out. They will not remember a minute or a millennium of punishment, so just get it over with.
I do not want people to suffer (so I preach the gospel). God also does not want people to suffer, but they still do, even in this life. You do not understand Moral Government/Moral Governor, love, holiness, free will, justice, mercy, soul, heaven/hell.
The view is defensible. It is true that physical death is a cessation of physical life, but man is in the image of God, so we are not just hairless apes. This point eludes you. We have a spirit/soul that continues, like it or not.
They do if they're executed...
How many dead people in a grave yard? All of them, but they are actually more alive in the after life. Those who commit suicide are physically dead and dead to this life, but they are very much alive in the after life (shock).
You do not understand physical, spiritual, eternal death.:duh:
You surely joke.
Your view requires that your revelation trumps plain words.
It is not that the wicked will be conscious during the millennium, but that they are annialated after they are punished after their standing again for judgment.
It is the missing out on all the good that God has prepared for those who love Him which is the worse thing of all, and their seeing those who they hated enjoying.
Much wailing and knashing of teeth can not occur to people burnt up in hell.
LA
God's Truth
New member
A person who ceases to exist is not being punished any longer.
Do the scriptures say anywhere that the death is eternal, or the punishment is eternal?
You speak untruths about me. You are lying and bearing false witness. Of course, we die, we die physically.
I did not speak untruth about you. If the wicked are conscious forever then they too have eternal life. God says they don't. The serpent says the wicked will not die. You are claiming the wicked are conscious forever. You lied about me when you said "they don't understand life." I do, having life is being alive. You want to change the meaning of words to fit your doctrine.
because they listen to satan's lies
iow, they choose satan over God
iow, they choose satan over God
Did God Deceive Adam?
Did God Deceive Adam?
Original Sin and its penalty are two misunderstood foundational concepts. Sin in the strictest sense is lawlessness, more specifically the disobeying of God’s laws (1 John 3:4). The penalty for disobedience was clearly and succinctly communicated to Adam as being death. Adam was told not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil else he would surely die. Adam did not “miss the mark” as some claim; instead he chose to disobey God knowing the consequence for his action would result in his death. Another penalty was never stated or implied by God. God deceived Adam if the penalty was not death, but rather an afterlife of eternal torment.
Did God Deceive Adam?
Original Sin and its penalty are two misunderstood foundational concepts. Sin in the strictest sense is lawlessness, more specifically the disobeying of God’s laws (1 John 3:4). The penalty for disobedience was clearly and succinctly communicated to Adam as being death. Adam was told not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil else he would surely die. Adam did not “miss the mark” as some claim; instead he chose to disobey God knowing the consequence for his action would result in his death. Another penalty was never stated or implied by God. God deceived Adam if the penalty was not death, but rather an afterlife of eternal torment.