Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[godrulz]

You're a paramedic right? Has your exposure to human suffering made you desensitized to it? A serious question here GR if I'm right in regards to your profession. If not my apologies.

God and us do not delight in suffering, but it exists, nonetheless.

The issue is holiness/justice. The wicked suffer as a result of rejecting God's provision. You are naive to think that all will accept it or that there is post-mortem redemption.

God is grieved by suffering. Using your logic, he should stop it all now, but He does not. He opposed Satan, sin, sickness, suffering while on earth. These things are contrary to God's will, yet He will allow them to continue. Satan will not be converted nor snuffed if you take the Bible seriously.

Just so I can sleep better, are you a trinitarian or what other traditional views do you deny? Is universalism your only unorthodox view?

My pet 'heresies' are Open Theism, Moral Government, deny original sin, like Finney, Pentecostal, etc.

 

[godrulz]

I don't tag it as 'universalism' but whatever. The notion that an almighty loving God being able to restore all that He creates can be called heretical by you or whoever. Doctrines tend to limit such a deity's power I've noticed and your objection is hardly any different. Funny how the term 'heresy' is thrown about though isn't it? Your theology is not exactly regarded as 'proper' either. It's certainly not given much credence overall on here alone, yet you must be right and all others wrong?

Half the time actual 'love' is lost betwixt pompous human intellectualism IMO.

If the issue was just omnipotence, so be it. You fail to appreciate the intricacies of moral creation, Moral Governor responsibility, truth, lies, justice, mercy, free will, etc.

If God's will was always done, the world would not be like it is.

He is not willing for any to perish and desires all to come to Him. The sad reality is that many will not (Lk. 7:30; Mt. 23:37). Death seals destiny, like it or not.

Hitler is in hell. Get over it.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I agree. This is why we stick to the Bible, not Dante's Inferno as a medieval torture chamber. This big issue is separation from God, so you are rejecting a straw man that I also reject.

God is not a sadist, but putting people in jail makes a human judge just, not a sadist.

Erm, keeping people in a state of psychological torment/suffering is still torture GR. Taking literal fire/burning out of the equation doesn't help your cause. Ask anyone who's suffered with depression...

Your human/jail analogy fails on all levels.

 

[Arthur Brain]

If the issue was just omnipotence, so be it. You fail to appreciate the intricacies of moral creation, Moral Governor responsibility, truth, lies, justice, mercy, free will, etc.

If God's will was always done, the world would not be like it is.

He is not willing for any to perish and desires all to come to Him. The sad reality is that many will not (Lk. 7:30; Mt. 23:37). Death seals destiny, like it or not.

Hitler is in hell. Get over it.

Rather I disagree with what you regard as the intricacies required of God. You're quite the self appointed governor of how an omnipotent loving God should act and that cuts no dice. The fact that you show so little empathy for other fallible human beings and dismiss their 'justified' suffering through your own intellect ('exemplified' through your continually describing such as 'sentimentality) makes you no arbiter for decreeing who is 'there'.

Though it's telling you jump right to Hitler as a 'yardstick'.

 

[Arthur Brain]

God and us do not delight in suffering, but it exists, nonetheless.

The issue is holiness/justice. The wicked suffer as a result of rejecting God's provision. You are naive to think that all will accept it or that there is post-mortem redemption.

Oh, so you're a paragon of virtue then right? Define 'wicked'. As I've consistently maintained there's zero chance of all "choosing" the 'right path' in this drop in the ocean of a life so what's your point? Do you want to give yourself a pat on the back for being more astute than the rest of your fallible neighbours?

God is grieved by suffering. Using your logic, he should stop it all now, but He does not. He opposed Satan, sin, sickness, suffering while on earth. These things are contrary to God's will, yet He will allow them to continue. Satan will not be converted nor snuffed if you take the Bible seriously.

So God is grieved by suffering yet your doctrine would make the death camps look like a picnic in Disneyland by comparison? Maybe you should think that through a bit more...

Just so I can sleep better, are you a trinitarian or what other traditional views do you deny? Is universalism your only unorthodox view?

My pet 'heresies' are Open Theism, Moral Government, deny original sin, like Finney, Pentecostal, etc.

I don't go with any sort of label though I once attended a Pentecostal church and left it after clashing over certain matters. I'm sure you can guess the major one...

 

[godrulz]

Erm, keeping people in a state of psychological torment/suffering is still torture GR. Taking literal fire/burning out of the equation doesn't help your cause. Ask anyone who's suffered with depression...

Your human/jail analogy fails on all levels.

Jesus did say there would be suffering and torment, but this does not mean it will be the devil with pitchforks.

I understand suffering with depression. Those who reject God will be locked into their sin and selfishness and all its negative consequences. God has done everything He can so we can avoid this fate. The fate is real as described by Jesus, but avoidable. Not all will embrace the solution to the problem.

God has created us in His image. We live forever, like it or not. This necessitates two destinies. God does not destroy personal/moral creation (in the sense of annihilation), including Satan and those who follow his ways.


Are you trinitarian? I don't want to waste my time on peripheral issues if you are not.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Jesus did say there would be suffering and torment, but this does not mean it will be the devil with pitchforks.

I understand suffering with depression. Those who reject God will be locked into their sin and selfishness and all its negative consequences. God has done everything He can so we can avoid this fate. The fate is real as described by Jesus, but avoidable. Not all will embrace the solution to the problem.

God has created us in His image. We live forever, like it or not. This necessitates two destinies. God does not destroy personal/moral creation (in the sense of annihilation), including Satan and those who follow his ways.


Are you trinitarian? I don't want to waste my time on peripheral issues if you are not.

So the death of the wicked only means they are alive forever?

Stupid.

LA

 

[Arthur Brain]

Jesus did say there would be suffering and torment, but this does not mean it will be the devil with pitchforks.

What difference does it make whatever form it takes? If it's torment it's unbearable pain of some sort.

I understand suffering with depression. Those who reject God will be locked into their sin and selfishness and all its negative consequences. God has done everything He can so we can avoid this fate. The fate is real as described by Jesus, but avoidable. Not all will embrace the solution to the problem.

How has God done all He can if it's inevitable prior to creation? God sets things up to be this way under this doctrine. Unless you think people consciously choose to go to a place of interminable suffering (which is ludicrous) then you make no sense.

God has created us in His image. We live forever, like it or not. This necessitates two destinies. God does not destroy personal/moral creation (in the sense of annihilation), including Satan and those who follow his ways.

Well, your doctrine necessitates it...

Are you trinitarian? I don't want to waste my time on peripheral issues if you are not.

I don't assign myself any particular label and this thread isn't about trinitarians anyway. How you can think eternal suffering is a 'peripheral issue' is just downright bemusing.

 

[godrulz]

Peripheral does not mean unimportant. Views on afterlife are not essential, salvific issues. Christians can hold a variety of positions on this.

The doctrine of God, Christology, soteriology (unlike eschatology, ecclesiology, etc.) are salvific, essential issues on key details.

So, we can both be Christians and differ on the nature of hell. We cannot claim to be Christian if we deny the Deity and resurrection of Christ.

So, JWs agree with annihilationism, but they are lost (peripheral issue compared to salvific, essential issue). They deny the Deity of Christ.

If you are a Unitarian Universalist, you need to get your doctrine of God/Christology right. Even if you are right about universalism, you would be fatally wrong to reject the real God. If you are a Christian Universalist who affirms trinity, but denies hell, then que sera sera.

It will take you a second to say you believe in or reject the trinity. It would help me to know whether I should waste my breath on hell if you are not even Christian.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Peripheral does not mean unimportant. Views on afterlife are not essential, salvific issues. Christians can hold a variety of positions on this.

The doctrine of God, Christology, soteriology (unlike eschatology, ecclesiology, etc.) are salvific, essential issues on key details.

So, we can both be Christians and differ on the nature of hell. We cannot claim to be Christian if we deny the Deity and resurrection of Christ.

So, JWs agree with annihilationism, but they are lost (peripheral issue compared to salvific, essential issue). They deny the Deity of Christ.

If you are a Unitarian Universalist, you need to get your doctrine of God/Christology right. Even if you are right about universalism, you would be fatally wrong to reject the real God. If you are a Christian Universalist who affirms trinity, but denies hell, then que sera sera.

It will take you a second to say you believe in or reject the trinity. It would help me to know whether I should waste my breath on hell if you are not even Christian.

Ya know what, forget it. I may as well be debating with a ZX81...

lain:

 

[resurrected]

nice try GR - and as always, I enjoyed reading you

 

[godrulz]

Ya know what, forget it. I may as well be debating with a ZX81...

lain:

What is a ZX81 or is that secret knowledge for your sect? If someone asked me my views on Christ/God, I would be transparent.

I assume you have something to hide, so you refuse to answer. I have a valid point.

You should have told us you are a Moonie.

 

[resurrected]

nice try GR - and as always, I enjoyed reading you

 

[Arthur Brain]

What is a ZX81 or is that secret knowledge for your sect? If someone asked me my views on Christ/God, I would be transparent.

I assume you have something to hide, so you refuse to answer. I have a valid point.

You should have told us you are a Moonie.

It's an old computer that used to crash a lot...hardly 'secret' knowledge and I'm not part of any sect either thanks.

I don't label myself as anything as I don't happen to 'demand' others do the same. I could care less whether you identify as Catholic, Protestant, Presbyterian, Quaker or any other such 'denom' or else frankly.

Still, carry on seeing your doctrine of interminable suffering as a minor 'peripheral issue' as you will. I think the T1000 would probably agree with you...

 

[godrulz]

It's an old computer that used to crash a lot...hardly 'secret' knowledge and I'm not part of any sect either thanks.

I don't label myself as anything as I don't happen to 'demand' others do the same. I could care less whether you identify as Catholic, Protestant, Presbyterian, Quaker or any other such 'denom' or else frankly.

Still, carry on seeing your doctrine of interminable suffering as a minor 'peripheral issue' as you will. I think the T1000 would probably agree with you...

It is not minor or I would not be defending the biblical view. I am saying it is not salvific, since Christians have held to various views on this without denying Christ/gospel. Having a false god or christ is not minor, but it is salvific, so I am giving perspective.

I am not asking for your denomination if you are Christian. I am asking for your religion if you are not Christian or your view of God (which is more fundamental than debatable views on hell). What are you hiding?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

It is not minor or I would not be defending the biblical view. I am saying it is not salvific, since Christians have held to various views on this without denying Christ/gospel. Having a false god or christ is not minor, but it is salvific, so I am giving perspective.

I am not asking for your denomination if you are Christian. I am asking for your religion if you are not Christian or your view of God (which is more fundamental than debatable views on hell). What are you hiding?

You like to examine the doctrine of others as if you have some special authority to do so.

Yet you may well be condemning yourself if your doctrine is wrong.

The Pharisees of the Bible liked to do that, and they had no understanding of love or mans right.

Neither do you show that you do either.

Not even Jesus does what you do, when He does have the right, but you do not have any right.

On the topic-

What do you not understand about the word perish or the second death.

The Bible is clear that men are unconscious in death, how much more so in the second death.




LA

 

[Timotheos]

You like to examine the doctrine of others as if you have some special authority to do so.

Yet you may well be condemning yourself if your doctrine is wrong.

The Pharisees of the Bible liked to do that, and they had no understanding of love or mans right.

Neither do you show that you do either.

Not even Jesus does what you do, when He does have the right, but you do not have any right.

On the topic-

What do you not understand about the word perish or the second death.

The Bible is clear that men are unconscious in death, how much more so in the second death.




LA

Exactly, Jesus said "You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are."

How appropriate.

 

[godrulz]

One man's Pharisee is another man's Paul.

Defending and proclaiming truth vs error is not Pharisaical, but Pauline.:wave2:

 

[Timotheos]

One man's Pharisee is another man's Paul.

Defending and proclaiming truth vs error is not Pharisaical, but Pauline.:wave2:

Perhaps the attitude of the person proclaiming "truth" has a lot to do with it. I've just been saying what the Bible says. According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death. I haven't said anyone else is warped, that they are similar to cult members, that they have no standard of holiness, etc.

(Edited to add: Except "resurrected", I did say that he is a sadist, however I had proof of that.)

 

[resurrected]

and I have proof that you're a child when it comes to scriptural understanding, Timmy