Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Tambora]

According to the Bible the wicked perish and those who are with Christ have eternal life.

Your single-minded description of "death" is causing you as much trouble as your single-minded description of "perish".

Luke 8 KJV
(24) And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.
​

Well, looky there.
Folks that perish, and yet are still conscious.

2 Corinthians 4 KJV
(16) For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
​

Well, looky there.

 

[Timotheos]

Jesus also said body and soul would be destroyed in Gehenna. And he said the way is wide that leads to destruction. Death does not mean the opposite of death as you assume. Death does not mean eternal life in hell.

 

[Timotheos]

Jesus also said body and soul would be destroyed in Gehenna. And he said the way is wide that leads to destruction. Death does not mean the opposite of death as you assume. Death does not mean eternal life in hell.

 

[Tambora]

Jesus says:

Matthew 25 KJV
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[resurrected]

Timmy wants to believe that "everlasting punishment" means you're dead, no consciousness, forever

 

[Tambora]

Timmy wants to believe that "everlasting punishment" means you're dead, no consciousness, forever

Yep.
No one would have any fear of God's judgment at all, if that were true.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Do you have a link to support this statement?

Yes, it's pretty long but it's in chapters if you want to read:

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html#36

 

[Arthur Brain]

He doesn't force anybody to go to hell. That's the point of the cross. Without it, we are hellbound. With it is the only way there is ever a choice and to choose otherwise leaves us hellbound where we started

Well, you're still simply underlining what I've already said. If people don't 'choose' correctly on this plane then they're forced into a state of eternal suffering. Not to mention, why would a loving God create life in the first place if it's apparent 'default' state was one of "hell"?

 

[Arthur Brain]

Yep.
No one would have any fear of God's judgment at all, if that were true.

Co-erced love isn't love at all. Loving human parents don't scare their children into loving them in turn. They may punish and correct but for the childs benefit.

 

[Aimiel]

Hell was not created to scare people into loving God.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

It is His Goodness that leads men to repent...

Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Jesus told us the truth about the Lake of Fire being eternal, because He wants us to know all truth. It's a very stern warning. God is far more great and far more terrible than anyone yet realizes. Those who come to know Him do so by fearing Him, then come to know His Grace and come to trust Him. Once that trust is built, He lets them know that He is to be honored, feared, trusted and adored. Without fear, one cannot say that they know The Lord. He is Holy and not to be compared to mere men or judged by them.

 

[doloresistere]

Yes, it's pretty long but it's in chapters if you want to read:

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html#36

Thanks for the link. It seems that the doctrine of eternal torment is of pagan origin. Not only did Christianity change the world around it, pagan elements of the world changed Christianity. The word that Christ uses for the duration of torment is temporary. He could have used a word that meant non-ending punishment, but he didn't. That was a doctrine that was espoused by the Pharisees.

 

[Jordan Fontenot]

Well, you're still simply underlining what I've already said. If people don't 'choose' correctly on this plane then they're forced into a state of eternal suffering. Not to mention, why would a loving God create life in the first place if it's apparent 'default' state was one of "hell"?

The default wasn't hell, but by sinning that's what we choose. God shouldn't give us a choice in the matter. He is holy and powerful enough that He should justly punish us for what we've done. He didn't have to send Jesus. He doesn't have to allow us to be saved. He made rules, and we broke them. Instead of punishment He gave us a second chance. I'm amazed you can take salvation as granted

 

[Arthur Brain]

The default wasn't hell, but by sinning that's what we choose. God shouldn't give us a choice in the matter. He is holy and powerful enough that He should justly punish us for what we've done. He didn't have to send Jesus. He doesn't have to allow us to be saved. He made rules, and we broke them. Instead of punishment He gave us a second chance. I'm amazed you can take salvation as granted

Er, people don't choose eternal torment by not being perfect sinless beings. You argue that a loving God doesn't force people into loving Him, that He doesn't force them into hell, yet by creating billions of fallible beings and setting the parameters where a handful of years and a 'choice' is required to escape the most indescribable fate how is God not doing just that? It amazes me that people blithely accept a doctrine of the most atrocious cruelty and associate it with a loving God.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Thanks for the link. It seems that the doctrine of eternal torment is of pagan origin. Not only did Christianity change the world around it, pagan elements of the world changed Christianity. The word that Christ uses for the duration of torment is temporary. He could have used a word that meant non-ending punishment, but he didn't. That was a doctrine that was espoused by the Pharisees.

The word for torment also translates as 'purify' if memory serves correctly here. It also makes sense that legalists would warp such a doctrine, as controlling people through fear would be a very handy tool to utilize - even to this day.

 

[Jordan Fontenot]

Er, people don't choose eternal torment by not being perfect sinless beings. You argue that a loving God doesn't force people into loving Him, that He doesn't force them into hell, yet by creating billions of fallible beings and setting the parameters where a handful of years and a 'choice' is required to escape the most indescribable fate how is God not doing just that? It amazes me that people blithely accept a doctrine of the most atrocious cruelty and associate it with a loving God.

You're missing my point.

The scenario you say I am implying is what the case would be... without the cross. WITH the cross it really does become a choice. Do you want to follow God or not? We wanted free will, and we got it. You want to complain about that be my guest. But if that's the case the option has to be there to choose not to be with God, and that would be sin. God said though that we can while the slate clean at any time, but it means choosing Him, because he is the only one who can make us clean enough to go to heaven. Hell is prepared for the devil and his angels because they rejected God. Same crime by us means the same punishment. Truth be told we all deserve hell, whether you like it or not. We may not think it's fair, but what do we know about fair. As you said we are fallible beings. So God, being just must punish every sin with its appropriate punishment. To ain is to reject God. Lest I say more

 

[Arthur Brain]

You're missing my point.

The scenario you say I am implying is what the case would be... without the cross. WITH the cross it really does become a choice. Do you want to follow God or not? We wanted free will, and we got it. You want to complain about that be my guest. But if that's the case the option has to be there to choose not to be with God, and that would be sin. God said though that we can while the slate clean at any time, but it means choosing Him, because he is the only one who can make us clean enough to go to heaven. Hell is prepared for the devil and his angels because they rejected God. Same crime by us means the same punishment. Truth be told we all deserve hell, whether you like it or not. We may not think it's fair, but what do we know about fair. As you said we are fallible beings. So God, being just must punish every sin with its appropriate punishment. To ain is to reject God. Lest I say more

What do you mean by "we wanted free will and we got it"? Were you born with the desire to have a free will? We either have it or we don't and there's no choice in that. Frankly there's no such thing as an absolute free will. There's too many factors that play a part in our lives for such a thing to exist in the absolute. I can only presume that you think everyone who has doubts or don't believe are somehow 'choosing not to be with God?'

You can claim we all deserve what your doctrine promotes and every man Jack deserves to suffer and writhe in eternal agony, but that's just your own opinion based on a doctrine - whether you like that or not.

 

[resurrected]

careful Jordan - I'm sensing a tardfest coming on

I've seen this behavior from artie before - when he gets upset he starts to become abusive and irrational

best to break it off now

 

[Timotheos]

Timmy wants to believe that "everlasting punishment" means you're dead, no consciousness, forever

Timmy and Jesus both. Read Matt 10:28

 

[Jordan Fontenot]

What do you mean by "we wanted free will and we got it"? Were you born with the desire to have a free will? We either have it or we don't and there's no choice in that. Frankly there's no such thing as an absolute free will. There's too many factors that play a part in our lives for such a thing to exist in the absolute. I can only presume that you think everyone who has doubts or don't believe are somehow 'choosing not to be with God?'

You can claim we all deserve what your doctrine promotes and every man Jack deserves to suffer and writhe in eternal agony, but that's just your own opinion based on a doctrine - whether you like that or not.

That's based on the Bible I read which I believe to be complete and accurate and to be the inspired words written by men who were proclaiming through divine inspiration the way of the one true perfect and holy God, whose words stand above every mans, even yours

 

[Arthur Brain]

That's based on the Bible I read which I believe to be complete and accurate and to be the inspired words written by men who were proclaiming through divine inspiration the way of the one true perfect and holy God, whose words stand above every mans, even yours

Which version? Which translation? They're not all the same. As my previous link showed, the majority of the early church didn't glean such from the original texts so which version are you reading and why should your interpretation stand above theirs?