glassjester
Well-known member
No, I will not.
Is Perspecuity Necessary for Sola Scriptura?
- Thread starter glassjester
- Start date
No, I will not.
glassjester
Well-known member
I don't get it. Are you saying that Christ prohibited all tradition?
Cruciform
New member
In fact, that is what the one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself tells us.
...but not for the one historic Church that He Himself personally founded [source].
Proof, please.
Already decisively answered---and corrected---in a previous post. :yawn:
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
False Prophet
New member
They nullify the Word with their traditions. Their traditions take the place of the Word of God, because they reject the knowledge of the truth so as to be saved; God sends over them a deluding influence so that they will believe a lie.
5 The Pharisees and the teachers of the law said to Jesus, “Why don’t your followers obey the unwritten laws which have been handed down to us? Mk7
We have a famine of the Word.
6 Jesus answered, “Isaiah was right when he spoke about you hypocrites. He wrote,
‘These people show honor to me with words,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 Their worship of me is worthless.
The things they teach are nothing but human rules.’ Isaiah 29:13
8 You have stopped following the commands of God, and you follow only human teachings.”
We are born again by the Word of God, and not by a bunch of nice stories.
5 The Pharisees and the teachers of the law said to Jesus, “Why don’t your followers obey the unwritten laws which have been handed down to us? Mk7
We have a famine of the Word.
6 Jesus answered, “Isaiah was right when he spoke about you hypocrites. He wrote,
‘These people show honor to me with words,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 Their worship of me is worthless.
The things they teach are nothing but human rules.’ Isaiah 29:13
8 You have stopped following the commands of God, and you follow only human teachings.”
We are born again by the Word of God, and not by a bunch of nice stories.
iouae
Well-known member
I have never called you the whore of Babylon. If this accusation was true, show me the post. I personally believe the "whore" is the most powerful nation on earth, and the "Beast" is the West, which this most powerful nation rides. Thus the whole [Western] world is Babylon, meaning the USA and Europe [which was the traditional ancient Rome]. I personally believe the Catholic Church is nothing.
I can point to a whole list of errors in your church and you can point to a few and ask, "what's bad about those?". It's not my list. You have no answer for the bigger list.
Candles, I like candles.
Latin - I was forced to do Latin at school for 3 years. Hated Latin but liked the teacher because she was cute. Would not like a church service in Latin because priests are not cute, and I would not have a clue what priest is saying.
Here is a better list of church errors...
http://www.bible.ca/cath-new-doctrines.htm
"Drink ye all of it" meaning the cup. Laity should drink too.
But the Catholics feel free to change scripture at will.
I have met Catholics, and like all folks, I am sure you are lovely in person. You may even be going to heaven (or purgatory, or wherever Catholics go). I have for a long time been part of a cult, and it was only when I left that I realised how brainwashed I was. It took an external intervention by God to drag me out, like Lot's wife from Sodom. Unlike Lot's wife, I have never looked back.
There is huge comfort in a cult. You know you are right. You only have to stay with the system to be saved. All others are wrong. And when you leave, you have no support system, and have to read scripture for yourself. And where you see an error, you timidly change, fearing that the wrath of God will come down upon you as your former cultic teaching taught. But the longer one is out of the cult, the more one discovers how much God loves one, and how pleased He is that one has finally woken up and like Christian in Pilgrim's Progress, has embarked on a voyage of Christian discovery unlike any possible in a cult.
So I have nothing against you Brewmamma. BTW, what do you brew? I used to brew my own beer. Now I don't drink alcohol, except once a year at communion.
And I am equally scathing of Protestant churches who invent doctrines opposite to sola scriptura.
iouae
Well-known member
I never see Peter or Paul ruling hierarchically like the Catholics do.
The apostles, with true credentials, never threw their weight around. As servants, they implored their churches to change where they were in error.
One little mistranslation of "on this rock I will build my church" and you Catholics feel this gives you licence to take very literally and seriously this bit of scripture, and then turn around and reject the rest of scripture.
The church is not built on a man. Peter was a good leader in his day and was instrumental in building the early church. There is no succession to that role.
The church is built on the Rock or chief cornerstone which is Christ. And we are the other living stones of that temple. The "keys" given were the Gospel given to all disciples to preach, which delivers those saved, from death and hell. It has nothing to do with some sort of Peter succession.
Paul clearly was not subject to Peter. So even in the NT early church we see no evidence that Peter was a "Pope". And Paul's influence seemed to be far greater than Peter's. This whole Catholic hierarchy thing of ruling over a believer's faith is utterly unbiblical.
brewmama
New member
Thanks for answering my points. Actually, I'm not Catholic, I'm Orthodox, but that isn't given as an identity option. However most people at this forum would view us as equal, or at least equally "heretical", if they even knew what Orthodoxy is. If you are not one of the many here that call the Catholic Church the whore of Babylon, I apologize, but I have seen it a lot.
I don't want to take your extremely long lists item by item, it seemed appropriate to show the silliness of them by pointing to some of the most absurd ones. Not all of them even apply to me. You should learn history and see where such virulent antiCatholicism comes from.
I can definitely assure you that the ancient churches are no "cult". You seem to misunderstand what is involved in being a member of the original church, and using all the spiritual tools and weapons against sin and the devil made available to us through Christ, the Apostles, and the Church. No one sees it as an easy ride, quite the contrary. We are all very familiar with Scripture and are immersed in it in the Liturgy and daily prayers. There is such opportunity for spiritual growth in the Church that it is mind boggling that some Christians would not only refuse to join, but actually treat it with contempt.
I absolutely do not see us saying "All others are wrong", it is quite the opposite, where Catholics are not recognized as Christians, or being in a cult, etc. I also see a total lack of ability of the Protestants that argue here to explain why they ignore SO MUCH of Scripture which disagrees with what they claim. They also use verses which in no way say what they think it says, they are just interpreting it and putting on their own spin. I am glad to hear you hold Protestants under such an equal amount of criticism, it makes you appear more honest.
I don't brew anything, it's part of my name so it makes an easy and convenient board name.
God bless!
brewmama
New member
Why do you say that? There is no Biblical basis for it.
The churches most certainly do not reject Scripture.
And how is it that you know this? It's not Biblical, and you reject any historical evidence or tradition of the Church, which means it has just been made up.
Peter was a bishop, which is what the Pope is. Peter and Paul are usually portrayed together in the Church, as they both died in Rome and were 2 of the big powerhouses in the early Church. There's nothing unbiblical about hierarchy in the Church, you have been severely misled.
iouae
Well-known member
Well Brewmama
If nothing else you got me to Google "Orthodox Church".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church
If I want to brew a cup of coffee, I microwave 1/3 of a cup of milk.
In the meantime I put a heaped tablespoon of coffee into an old coffee-maker filter-strainer and add boiling water. This coffee brew filters into another cup below the filter. Adding the coffee brew, hot milk and a teaspoon of sugar, I have a perfect cup of coffee in 1.5 mins.
I buy ground coffee because I don't want to have to grind the beans.
Nor do I want to roast the beans.
Nor do I want to pick the beans.
Nor do I want to grow the coffee tree.
Nor do I want to clear a forest and plant the tree.
If possible I would like to skip the 1.5 mins and have someone bring me an already made cup of coffee. Still working on that though.
My impression of sola scriptura is that of me enjoying a cup of coffee in 1.5 mins.
After reading about the Orthodox Church it seemed to me like a person beginning with clearing a forest, growing a tree, harvesting beans, roasting them, grinding them, making the cup of char - and by then are they too tired to smell the coffee.
It seems to me you have so much going on AROUND Christ that I struggled to find what was actually OF Christ.
If nothing else you got me to Google "Orthodox Church".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church
If I want to brew a cup of coffee, I microwave 1/3 of a cup of milk.
In the meantime I put a heaped tablespoon of coffee into an old coffee-maker filter-strainer and add boiling water. This coffee brew filters into another cup below the filter. Adding the coffee brew, hot milk and a teaspoon of sugar, I have a perfect cup of coffee in 1.5 mins.
I buy ground coffee because I don't want to have to grind the beans.
Nor do I want to roast the beans.
Nor do I want to pick the beans.
Nor do I want to grow the coffee tree.
Nor do I want to clear a forest and plant the tree.
If possible I would like to skip the 1.5 mins and have someone bring me an already made cup of coffee. Still working on that though.
My impression of sola scriptura is that of me enjoying a cup of coffee in 1.5 mins.
After reading about the Orthodox Church it seemed to me like a person beginning with clearing a forest, growing a tree, harvesting beans, roasting them, grinding them, making the cup of char - and by then are they too tired to smell the coffee.
It seems to me you have so much going on AROUND Christ that I struggled to find what was actually OF Christ.
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Cruciform
New member
Only because your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect has taught you not to "see" it. Regarding the primacy and authority of Peter, see this and this.
Post your proof.
Again, post your proof.
Your direct contradiction of Jesus Christ (Mt. 16:18) is noted.
Directly refuted here. Try again.
Answered---and corrected---here and here.
On the contrary (see sources cited above).
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
iouae
Well-known member
In scripture I don't see Peter ordering one Christian soul to do anything on the basis of his supposed "authority".
Look at the democratic manner in which the biggest crisis (circumcision) was resolved in Acts 15...
"6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.... ALL TALK
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said...
...INCLUDING PETER...
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul,...
....THEN BARNABUS AND PAUL TALK....
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:....
...THEN JAMES TALKS (BTW this James being the half-brother of Jesus, son of Mary) AND JAMES SEEMS TO SETTLE THE MATTER...
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas;....
...THEN THE WHOLE CHURCH REACHES A CONSENSUS WHICH PLEASES ALL....
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia....
THEN THEY WRITE LETTERS IN THE NAME OF ALL THE BELIEVERS, NOT A POPE...
30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: 31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation. 32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them....
...JUDAS AND SILAS DON'T ORDER ANYONE TO DO ANYTHING, RATHER THEY CONFIRM THEM, OR ESTABLISH AND STRENGTHEN THEM IN RIGHT DOING.
I am sorry. Sola scriptura there is no one Christian ever ordering another Christian around or domineering the other's faith walk.
Cruciform
New member
Already decisively answered (Post #210).
iouae
Well-known member
In your mind only.
Yep. :darwinsm:
Cruciform
New member
Post #215
iouae
Well-known member
In one sentence - learn the difference between a "petros" (Peter) and a "PETRA" - Christ, and ask yourself if you could build anything on a pebble, or would you build it on a rock the size of Petra in Jordan?
iouae
Well-known member
The Catholics have 2000 years to have answered everything here
But the only folks who swallow the arguments there are Catholics, brainwashed by the hierarchy.
Give me a scripture or a proof YOU actually understand.
I have not had 2000 years to have an iouae.com site to direct you to, to keep up with you pointing me here there and everywhere.
Cruciform
New member
Of course, Catholics are no more "brainwashed" than you are. Indeed, your claim that Catholics are "brainwashed" is simply part of your own "brainwashing" received at the hands of your chosen recently-invented, man-made anti-Catholic sect.
The sources I've provided are filled with biblical references and arguments, more than enough to satisfy your demand for scriptural proof.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+