Is John 3:7 for today ?

[Bradley D]

and when is Israel born again and of water ?

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (Romans 11:25-27)

I don't believe we will know the exact time!

"So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him" (Matthew 24:44).

 

[Derf]

And there are many believers that believe and say we must be born again !

Is it talking to Israel ?

or is talking to the body of Christ ?

a yes or no answer , mean nothing !!

dan p

Everybody faced with death needs to be born again with the life-giving Spirit.

 

[DAN P]

Everybody faced with death needs to be born again with the life-giving Spirit.

Then you believe all the ones saved by grace have to born again ?

Does Eph 2:8 and Rom 10:9 and 10 speak about being born again ?

Or how was SAUL // Paul then saved ?

Wil you explain how a person can be born again today with a verse ?

and I will then explain how Israel will be born again in Eze 36 and Eze 37 with water and cleansed !!

dan p

 

[Derf]

Then you believe all the ones saved by grace have to born again ?

Yes.

Does Eph 2:8

Yes, because it is talking about this:
Ephesians 2:5 KJV — Even when we were dead in sins [not alive], hath quickened us [made us alive, which is what being born is all about] together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

and Rom 10:9 and 10 speak about being born again ?

Yes
Romans 10:9-10 KJV — That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, (He was born again) thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Salvation from what? Death. You can't be saved from death without being born again, I.e., resurrected. Even those who don't die before Christ comes will be changed when they get their resurrection bodies, so they, too, will be born again.

Or how was SAUL // Paul then saved ?

From death? He will be resurrected, as illustrated by Christ's resurrection.

Wil you explain how a person can be born again today with a verse ?

Any verse that talks about resurrection talks about being born again.

and I will then explain how Israel will be born again in Eze 36 and Eze 37 with water and cleansed !!

dan p

Ok, but your reference in Rom 10 tells us it's not just about Israel, but also about the Gentiles.
Romans 10:12-13 KJV — For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Yes.

Yes, because it is talking about this:
Ephesians 2:5 KJV — Even when we were dead in sins [not alive], hath quickened us [made us alive, which is what being born is all about] together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 2:4-7 - New King James Version

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages...

www.biblegateway.com

"Made us alive together with Christ" does not mean "born again" or "reborn."

That's a meaning that churchianity has wrongly imposed on scripture.

Rather, "born again" is used only thrice in scripture, and ALL THREE uses are in book relating directly to Israel.



Paul does not use the term, instead, he tells us that we are dead in trespasses, and brought back to life.

Yes

Wrong.

Romans 10:9-10 KJV — That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, (He was born again) thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Salvation from what? Death.

Which has little to do with being born again.

Jesus told us what being "born again" means:

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

Bible Gateway passage: John 3:3-7 - New King James Version

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you...

www.biblegateway.com

In fact, the greek phrase GENNETHE ANOTHEN literally means "be born from above." it can mean "born again," since it is a "second" (hence "again") birth, but that doesn't quite get the meaning across.

In the New Covenant, between Israel and God, one must be born not of flesh and blood, but of water and Spirit, for "that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

You can't be saved from death without being born again, I.e., resurrected.

Born again does not mean resurrected.

Note how Jesus never once refers to a "resurrection" of any sort in the entire passage:

There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Bible Gateway passage: John 3:1-21 - New King James Version

The New Birth - There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Most...

www.biblegateway.com

Not even Peter says anything about believers (note: not the Body of Christ, but rather those under the New Covenant) being resurrected, only that they are begotten again through CHRIST'S (LOGOS!) resurrection!:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into. Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, because“All flesh is as grass,And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.The grass withers,And its flower falls away, But the word of the Lord endures forever.”Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Peter 1:3-25 - New King James Version

A Heavenly Inheritance - Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved...

www.biblegateway.com

Even those who don't die before Christ comes will be changed when they get their resurrection bodies, so they, too, will be born again.

Wrong.

Again, born again has nothing to do with resurrection of believers. (cf the above)

From death? He will be resurrected, as illustrated by Christ's resurrection.

No. Paul was SAVED (past tense, not "will be") on the road to Damascus.

He was made alive again, not reborn.

Any verse that talks about resurrection talks about being born again.

Saying it doesn't make it so!
And I just showed you from scripture why that's wrong, and the correct meaning.

Ok, but your reference in Rom 10 tells us it's not just about Israel, but also about the Gentiles.
Romans 10:12-13 KJV — For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Paul is drawing parallels between Israel's gospel and his gospel, while talking about Israel's current state (that of unbelief):

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. As it is written:“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:30-10:13 - New King James Version

Present Condition of Israel - What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Bradley D]

Born again! Born of the Spirit! pneúma the Holy Spirit!

 

[Derf]

Born again! Born of the Spirit! pneúma the Holy Spirit!

Hey, Bradley, can you quote who or what post your comment was directed at? I doubt anyone would disagree with what you said, but perhaps I didn't realize I said something against it.

 

[Derf]

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 2:4-7 - New King James Version

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages...

www.biblegateway.com

"Made us alive together with Christ" does not mean "born again" or "reborn."

That's a meaning that churchianity has wrongly imposed on scripture.

Rather, "born again" is used only thrice in scripture, and ALL THREE uses are in book relating directly to Israel.

View attachment 9743

You missed one:
[1Pe 1:3 KJV] Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Here it is in the ESV:
[1Pe 1:3 ESV] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Here's a sampling of Paul talking about such hope, which refers to the resurrection, as you can see:
[Rom 8:24 KJV] For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
[1Co 15:19 KJV] If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
[Col 1:5 KJV] For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Paul does not use the term, instead, he tells us that we are dead in trespasses, and brought back to life.

See above...Yes, we are brought back to life, but in hope of a future life. Either way, being brought to life is a synonym of being born. Being brought back to life is synonymous with being born again. So Paul is indeed talking about new birth, and the hope part of that new birth is for something that isn't yet experienced physically, but assured to us, because "hope that is seen (already experienced) is not hope".

But Paul uses a similar phrase, here:
[Tit 3:5 KJV] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

That word from Strong's:
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)

παλιγγενεσία paliggenesía, pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah; from G3825 and G1078; (spiritual) rebirth (the state or the act)

And here's what Paul is talking about (following verses):
[Tit 3:6 KJV] Which (the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost) he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
[Tit 3:7 KJV] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Those things, the washing and renewing, sure sound like being born again, this time of the Spirit.

Wrong.



Which has little to do with being born again.

Jesus told us what being "born again" means:

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

Bible Gateway passage: John 3:3-7 - New King James Version

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you...

www.biblegateway.com

In fact, the greek phrase GENNETHE ANOTHEN literally means "be born from above." it can mean "born again," since it is a "second" (hence "again") birth, but that doesn't quite get the meaning across.

Being born again, this time from above, is kind of like being born of the Spirit, after being born of water, don't you think? Thus "born again" applies, as you said.

In the New Covenant, between Israel and God, one must be born not of flesh and blood, but of water and Spirit, for "that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

I'm sure I'm not prepared to settle the age-old discussion of what being born of water and spirit means, but at least a few people (maybe quite a few) believe that the "water" part refers to the first birth, since we come of the amniotic fluid of the mother's womb.

Born again does not mean resurrected.

Paul seemed to think it did.

Note how Jesus never once refers to a "resurrection" of any sort in the entire passage:

There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Bible Gateway passage: John 3:1-21 - New King James Version

The New Birth - There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Most...

www.biblegateway.com

No, I suppose He didn't there, at least not openly. But He also chastised Nicodemus for not understanding this already, and He coupled it with "everlasting life", which we aren't fully immersed in until after the resurrection. And remember that Jesus didn't know whether Nicodemus was one of the "good guys" or one of the "bad guys" yet. So I can see why He wouldn't tell him everything.

Not even Peter says anything about believers (note: not the Body of Christ, but rather those under the New Covenant) being resurrected, only that they are begotten again through CHRIST'S (LOGOS!) resurrection!:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into. Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, because“All flesh is as grass,And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.The grass withers,And its flower falls away, But the word of the Lord endures forever.”Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Peter 1:3-25 - New King James Version

A Heavenly Inheritance - Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved...

www.biblegateway.com

Right. The bolded parts above speak of our incorruptible inheritance in heaven, compared to God "which lives and abides forever"; then Peter contrasts that new thing (which is incorruptible and abides forever) with the old thing, our flesh which withers and dies. Peter is indeed speaking of resurrection to our incorruptible bodies, just as Paul did.

[1Co 15:52 KJV] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

[Eph 1:13 KJV] In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[Eph 1:14 KJV] Which is the earnest (because we don't yet have the final thing) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

So what is the "inheritance" Paul speaks of?
[1Co 15:50 KJV] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

But only one born of the Spirit may inherit the kingdom of God, one that is incorruptible, or unable to die again, because he is already resurrected.

Wrong.

Again, born again has nothing to do with resurrection of believers. (cf the above)

Indeed, cf the above.

No. Paul was SAVED (past tense, not "will be") on the road to Damascus.

He was made alive again, not reborn.

Synonymous, supra.

Saying it doesn't make it so!
And I just showed you from scripture why that's wrong, and the correct meaning.

I'll address the following when I have more time.

Paul is drawing parallels between Israel's gospel and his gospel, while talking about Israel's current state (that of unbelief):

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. As it is written:“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:30-10:13 - New King James Version

Present Condition of Israel - What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Right Divider]

You missed one:
[1Pe 1:3 KJV] Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Here it is in the ESV:
[1Pe 1:3 ESV] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

The "us" is Israel. Peter was writing to Israelite's scattered into gentile lands.

1Pet 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:1) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,​

​

1Pet 2:12 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:12) Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by [your] good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.​

​

These are the same people that James writes to:

Jas 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:1) James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.​

Here's a sampling of Paul talking about such hope, which refers to the resurrection, as you can see:
[Rom 8:24 KJV] For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
[1Co 15:19 KJV] If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
[Col 1:5 KJV] For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Which gospel? Paul is referring to "my gospel" and not the gospel of the kingdom that the twelve were preaching to Israel.

See above...Yes, we are brought back to life, but in hope of a future life. Either way, being brought to life is a synonym of being born. Being brought back to life is synonymous with being born again.

If you want to force that meaning on it, you're welcome to do that. Most of Churchianity likes to do just that.

So Paul is indeed talking about new birth, and the hope part of that new birth is for something that isn't yet experienced physically, but assured to us, because "hope that is seen (already experienced) is not hope".

The body of Christ is a new creature and not a "reborn" one.

The idea that a believer in the body of Christ is "reborn" is all right, but it is NOT the same as the "born again" that Jesus was talking about in John 3.

The "born again" believer in the body of Christ is completely missing this:

John 3:8 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.​

 

[Bradley D]

Hey, Bradley, can you quote who or what post your comment was directed at? I doubt anyone would disagree with what you said, but perhaps I didn't realize I said something against it.

I was looking up "born again" in biblehub.com. Came across that and decided to post it. I liked it. No argument with you!

 

[Derf]

The "us" is Israel. Peter was writing to Israelite's scattered into gentile lands.

And Gentile believers, who are strangers to their own peoples
.

1Pet 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:1) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,​

​

1Pet 2:12 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:12) Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by [your] good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.​

Right...because in Christ there is no Jew or Gentile. Thus, everyone outside the church that is not a Jew is a Gentile.

​

These are the same people that James writes to:

Jas 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:1) James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.​

Which gospel? Paul is referring to "my gospel" and not the gospel of the kingdom that the twelve were preaching to Israel.

If you want to force that meaning on it, you're welcome to do that. Most of Churchianity likes to do just that.

The body of Christ is a new creature and not a "reborn" one.

The idea that a believer in the body of Christ is "reborn" is all right, but it is NOT the same as the "born again" that Jesus was talking about in John 3.

If you're saying the body of Christ isn't reborn in the same way as Israel, I agree. But "whosoever" doesn't seem to be a corporate word. So John 3 isn't talking so much about either the BOC or Israel, but about how an individual is saved from destruction.

The "born again" believer in the body of Christ is completely missing this:

John 3:8 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.​

So, would you like to expound on John 3:8? What does it mean to a Jew who is not missing that? And what does it mean to be missing that?

 

[Right Divider]

And Gentile believers, who are strangers to their own peoples

You sure do like to make things up...

Nope, Peter agreed to limit his ministry to the circumcision (i.e., Israel). See Gal 2.

Right...because in Christ there is no Jew or Gentile. Thus, everyone outside the church that is not a Jew is a Gentile.

You are talking about in the body of Christ there is either Jew nor Greek.

Before that, God separated Israel from the gentiles. That will happen again when God is finished building the body (i.e., at the catching away of the body).

If you're saying the body of Christ isn't reborn in the same way as Israel, I agree.

Awesome!

But "whosoever" doesn't seem to be a corporate word. So John 3 isn't talking so much about either the BOC or Israel, but about how an individual is saved from destruction.

YE is not a singular word, it's plural.

John 3:7 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.​

The THEE there is Nicodemus (singular). The YE is plural.

So, would you like to expound on John 3:8? What does it mean to a Jew who is not missing that? And what does it mean to be missing that?

I'll leave that for you to research. It probably deserves its own thread.

P.S. Don't forget that in John 3 Christ is speaking only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matt 15:24 (AKJV/PCE)​

(15:24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ​

 

[DAN P]

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (Romans 11:25-27)

I don't believe we will know the exact time!

"So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him" (Matthew 24:44).

as I said many times , John 3:5 has nothing to do with the body of Christ .

John 3:5 says , Except a man // tis ,

be born // gennao is in the aorist tense , passive voice , in the passive voice , and that means is doing the action to that man and/ or Israel .

water // ydor is in the Gentive Case and means a case of description and in the singular , meaning it will happen at only one time and is in the Greek Neuter , meaning Male and Female

the Spirit // Pneuma , is also in the Gentive Case as above .

he cannot // is a disjuncative particile negative and the Greek words he cannot , means that male or female will never enter the kingdom of God .

the word water // ydor is used here , does that means water baptism ? I say never as n the Greek word for water // ydor is not used here .

the words , except a man be born of water is speaking aout Israel in Eze 36 where Israel will be sprinkled wit water and be clean , by John , nooooooooooo , but washed by Christ himself , and given a new heart and where the new covenant begins .

and Eze 37:1-28 tell how Israel will be born of water and be born again !!

dan p

 

[JudgeRightly]

You missed one:
[1Pe 1:3 KJV] Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Here it is in the ESV:
[1Pe 1:3 ESV] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1) I mean, if you're going to nitpick, then I'm going to point out that the greek phrase used in John 3 in both verses is different than the phrase used by Peter in 1 Peter 1.

2) I quoted that verse in the very post you are responding to for a reason... the reason being is that they use the same phrase, which is different than the phrase used by John in chapter 3. The phrase in John I mentioned above is two words, as follows:

Strong's g1080 - Lexical: γεννάω - Transliteration: gennaó - Part of Speech: Verb - Phonetic Spelling: ghen-nah'-o - Definition: to beget (of the male), (of the female) to bring forth, give birth to. - Origin: From a variation of genos; to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate. - Usage: bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring. - Translated as (count): begat (39), having been born (12), has been born (4), have begotten (4), were born (4), to be born (3), was born (3), be born (2), had been born (2), have been born (2), having been begotten (2), he begat (2), he was born (2), begetting (1), being born (1), born (1), did bear (1), has been begotten (1), having been conceived (1), having begotten (1), he has been born (1), he should be born (1), I have begotten (1), she bore (1), she brings forth (1), they breed (1), was to be born (1), we were born (1), will bear (1). ------------------ Strong's g509 - Lexical: ἄνωθεν - Transliteration: anóthen - Part of Speech: Adverb - Phonetic Spelling: an'-o-then - Definition: (a) from above, from heaven, (b) from the beginning, from their origin (source), from of old, (c) again, anew. - Origin: From ano; from above; by analogy, from the first; by implication, anew. - Usage: from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top. - Translated as (count): from above (6), top (3), from the first (2), anew (1), the from above (1).

IOW, Jesus is preaching that Israel (cf Matthew 15:24) must be "born from above" through water and spirit (John 3:5) to see/enter the Kingdom of God.

The one word in 1 Peter 1 means "to beget again, beget into a new life":

Strong's g313 - Lexical: ἀναγεννάω - Transliteration: anagennaó - Part of Speech: Verb - Phonetic Spelling: an-ag-en-nah'-o - Definition: to beget again, beget into a new life. - Origin: From ana and gennao; to beget or (by extension) bear (again). - Usage: beget, (bear) X (again). - Translated as (count): Having been born again (1), having begotten again (1).

He's saying (speaking to the Diaspora, those of the circumcision), not the Body of Christ, cf Galatians 2), that they now, through being "begotten again" have a hope that they did not have before. IOW, they went from their old life of having no hope, to a new life of having hope in what was to come, ie, the New Jerusalem where Christ would reign as King of Israel on the throne of David.

Here's a sampling of Paul talking about such hope, which refers to the resurrection, as you can see:
[Rom 8:24 KJV] For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
[1Co 15:19 KJV] If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
[Col 1:5 KJV] For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

This is an example of "[Israel] shall be saved in like manner as [the Body of Christ]" that you're trying to twist (likely unintentionally, but twisting all the same) into supporting the idea that Paul taught the same as what the Twelve taught.

The problem is that what Paul teaches has a different context to it than what the Twelve teach, including Peter's and John's writings.

The context of Paul's teaching has ALWAYS been a citizenship in heaven, not a citizenship on Earth in Israel:

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

Bible Gateway passage: Philippians 3:20, Philippians 3:21 - New King James Version

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

www.biblegateway.com

Peter's (and Jesus') context is the Kingdom of Israel which Jesus Himself will rule from upon David's throne, in the New Jerusalem, that holy city that will descend from Heaven (that "incorruptible and undefiled" inheritance that "does not fade away" that is "reserved in Heaven" for Israel, who are "kept by the power of God through faith" (like manner as they (the Body of Christ)) "for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time"), as a bride adorned for her husband.

See above...Yes, we are brought back to life, but in hope of a future life.

Nope.

A life that we have currently. Our citizenship is in heaven, not "will be."

We HAVE a life in heaven.

Either way, being brought to life is a synonym of being born. Being brought back to life is synonymous with being born again.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

So Paul is indeed talking about new birth,

Because you say so?

and the hope part of that new birth

Begging the question.

is for something that isn't yet experienced physically, but assured to us, because "hope that is seen (already experienced) is not hope".

The new life we get is, yes.

"New birth"? No. Notice how you have to force "new life" to mean "born again/rebirth/new birth/etc." You're eisegeting, reading your beliefs into the text.

Let Scripture speak for itself, take it for what it says at face value.

But Paul uses a similar phrase, here:
[Tit 3:5 KJV] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Regeneration is not "born from above" or "begotten unto a new life."

That word from Strong's:
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)

παλιγγενεσία paliggenesía, pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah; from G3825 and G1078; (spiritual) rebirth (the state or the act)

I don't see EITHER of those words (G3825 or G1078) in Titus 3:5, particularly the latter.

I do, however, see G3824:

Strong's g3824 - Lexical: παλιγγενεσία - Transliteration: paliggenesia - Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine - Phonetic Spelling: pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah - Definition: a new birth, regeneration, renewal. - Origin: From palin and genesis; (spiritual) rebirth (the state or the act), i.e. (figuratively) spiritual renovation; specially, Messianic restoration. - Usage: regeneration. - Translated as (count): of regeneration (1), regeneration (1).

And here's what Paul is talking about (following verses):
[Tit 3:6 KJV] Which (the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost) he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
[Tit 3:7 KJV] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

The NKJV makes the passage a bit clearer, and does not support your parenthetical.

But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Bible Gateway passage: Titus 3:4-7 - New King James Version

But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our...

www.biblegateway.com

The Holy Spirit was poured out. Not "the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost." It's THROUGH His being poured out on us that we are washed and renewed.

Those things, the washing and renewing, sure sound like being born again, this time of the Spirit.

But not of water. Remember, Jesus said "born from above" via "water AND Spirit."

A CRUCIAL difference.

Being born again, this time from above, is kind of like being born of the Spirit, after being born of water, don't you think?

No.

Born from above means "being baptised with water and the Spirit, and is used ONLY in the context of Israel and her new covenant with God (ie, the four gospels, Acts 1-8, and everything from Hebrews onwards). Israel is washed of their sin in Christ's blood (the Blood of the Lamb, which has symbolic significance for Israel), as their New Covenant required the death of the testator for it to come into effect (Hebrews 9:6).

On the other hand, the Body of Christ is washed by the Holy Spirit, the "regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit."

Quite a huge difference.

We are washed with the Holy Spirit alone through Christ's death, while they are washed with Blood, and must be baptised in water and with the Spirit.

There are similarities between the two groups, but things that are different are not the same. IOW, just because there are similarities doesn't mean you can ignore their differences.

Thus "born again" applies, as you said.

Only figuratively, at best.

I'm sure I'm not prepared to settle the age-old discussion of what being born of water and spirit means, but at least a few people (maybe quite a few) believe that the "water" part refers to the first birth, since we come of the amniotic fluid of the mother's womb.

So what?

Nowhere in scripture does it say that ANYONE, let alone Israel or the Body of Christ, should be or was baptized in amniotic fluid.

What an odd claim.

No, there were plenty of instances of WATER baptismS (PLURAL!) in Hebrew culture.

Paul seemed to think it did.

Because you say so?

Book chapter verse!

OH WAIT! You can't provide that, because you're claiming to know what Paul thought, rather than what he actually said!

NOWHERE does Paul use the term "born again," and for good reason! He didn't want to confuse believers! Instead, he uses phrases like "put off the old man ... put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, Circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Sythian, slave nor free" (Colossians 3) and "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation, old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new" (2 Corinthians 5) and "For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive" (1 Corinthians 15).

The language he uses talks about life from the dead.
The language Jesus and Peter and the Twelve used talks about a new life, as thought born again.

No, I suppose He didn't there, at least not openly.

He did not. Period.

There is no room for your interpretation.

But He also chastised Nicodemus for not understanding this already, and He coupled it with "everlasting life", which we aren't fully immersed in until after the resurrection.

"Everlasting life" in the coming Kingdom of Israel.

Not "everlasting life" in Heaven.

And remember that Jesus didn't know whether Nicodemus was one of the "good guys" or one of the "bad guys" yet. So I can see why He wouldn't tell him everything.

Nicodemus was a Pharisee, a ruler of the Jews, part of the flock Jesus came to save, and someone who came to him at night to ask Him questions, meaning he probably didn't want the other Pharisees to know he was associating with Christ.

I'd say that puts him squarely in the middle, between Jesus and the Pharisees, if not slightly towards Jesus' side.

Right. The bolded parts above speak of our incorruptible inheritance in heaven, compared to God "which lives and abides forever";

No, it doesn't.

Addressed above, re: New Jerusalem

then Peter contrasts that new thing (which is incorruptible and abides forever) with the old thing, our flesh which withers and dies.

That's not what he did at all... Supra.

Peter is indeed speaking of resurrection to our incorruptible bodies, just as Paul did.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

[1Co 15:52 KJV] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Not quite the same topic, I'm afraid.

We're talking about the difference between being born again and being made alive again, not what will happen to ALL believers, both of the New Covenant and of the Body of Christ.

[Eph 1:13 KJV] In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[Eph 1:14 KJV] Which is the earnest (because we don't yet have the final thing) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

So what is the "inheritance" Paul speaks of?[/QUOTE]

Answered a few verses earlier in that chapter:

"being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory." (vv. 11b-12)

[1Co 15:50 KJV] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

True of both groups.

That doesn't make the two groups the same group.

Hence why ALL will receive new bodies.

Oh, and the "Kingdom of God" is... "bigger," for lack of a better word... and includes as a part of it, the coming "Kingdom of Israel," AND the Body of Christ who will reside in Heaven.

But only one born of the Spirit may inherit the kingdom of God, one that is incorruptible, or unable to die again, because he is already resurrected.

Supra.

Indeed, cf the above.

Synonymous, supra.

Saying it doesn't make it so, Derf.

 

[Derf]

You sure do like to make things up...

Nope, Peter agreed to limit his ministry to the circumcision (i.e., Israel). See Gal 2.

And that's why he was hanging out with Gentiles? That's a funny way to limit one's ministry to non-Gentiles.

You are talking about in the body of Christ there is either Jew nor Greek.

Right. The ones Peter was writing to.

Before that, God separated Israel from the gentiles. That will happen again when God is finished building the body (i.e., at the catching away of the body).

Maybe so, but for now you agree that they aren't separated, right?

Awesome!

YE is not a singular word, it's plural.

John 3:7 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.​

Is "a man" single or plural? And which came first, "a man" or "ye"? Thus, which one carries the more weight, I.e., should "ye" be understood based on "a man", or should "a man" be understood based on "ye"? Jesus gives us the answer in 3:7 when He says "...that I said unto thee, 'Ye...'", when He didn't say "ye", He said "a man". So what is He saying? That He recognizes Nicodemus is a tracher of Israel, and therefore whrn He says "a man", He's giving Nicodemus instruction about how to share the gospel (the good news about how to be saved from destruction) with others of Israel--that they all need to be born again individually, because their fleshly birth as a Jew is not going to save them, but only belief in the Christ will.

The THEE there is Nicodemus (singular). The YE is plural.

I'll leave that for you to research. It probably deserves its own thread.

P.S. Don't forget that in John 3 Christ is speaking only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

No, He's speaking only to Nicodemus.

Matt 15:24 (AKJV/PCE)​

(15:24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ​

 

[JudgeRightly]

Is "a man" single or plural? And which came first, "a man" or "ye"? Thus, which one carries the more weight, I.e., should "ye" be understood based on "a man", or should "a man" be understood based on "ye"? Jesus gives us the answer in 3:7 when He says "...that I said unto thee, 'Ye...'", when He didn't say "ye", He said "a man". So what is He saying? That He recognizes Nicodemus is a teacher of Israel, and therefore when He says "a man", He's giving Nicodemus instruction about how to share the gospel (the good news about how to be saved from destruction) with others of Israel--that they all need to be born again individually, because their fleshly birth as a Jew is not going to save them, but only belief in the Christ will.

I recommend you look at what is actually being said, since even (part of) what you just said agrees with what RD just said, since "a" is an indefinite article. "A man" is referring not to one specific man (Nicodemus), but includes by definition ANYONE without any limit.



"Truly truly I say to you (singular), if not anyone (indefinite) be born from above..."

What RD said is correct.

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Bible Gateway passage: John 3:3 - New King James Version

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

www.biblegateway.com

"You" refers to Nicodemus.
"One" could be anyone.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Right. The ones Peter was writing to.

Peter was not writing to Gentiles.

He was writing to the Dispersion, AKA Jews.

Maybe so, but for now you agree that they aren't separated, right?

Israel and the Body of Christ are indeed separated. However, Israel's New Covenant is not currently in effect.

Jews and "Greeks" WITHIN the Body of Christ are not separated, and there is no difference between them (again, WITHIN THE BODY OF CHRIST).

No, He's speaking only to Nicodemus.

Correct. Nicodemus came to Jesus alone in the night to speak to Him.

But Jesus' ministry was the lost sheep of the House of Israel, as the verse RD quoted said that you ignored:

But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 15:24 - New King James Version

But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

www.biblegateway.com

You really shouldn't ignore Scripture, especially when what is being quoted are Jesus' words, the words of God Himself!

 

[Right Divider]

And that's why he was hanging out with Gentiles? That's a funny way to limit one's ministry to non-Gentiles.

So... to you... "hanging out with gentiles" is the same as ministering to them?

Your emotionalism is not going to help you understand the truth.

Right. The ones Peter was writing to.

Begging the question is a logical fallacy.

Maybe so, but for now you agree that they aren't separated, right?

IN THE BODY OF CHRIST, yes. I've made that clear already.

Peter, James and John agreed to limit their ministry to the circumcision.

Gal 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:9) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. ​

Their agreement did not mean that Peter was allergic to gentiles. But Peter and the eleven were called to minister to Israel, just like Jesus was. Jesus sent them AS His father had sent Him.

Matt 15:24 (AKJV/PCE)​

(15:24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ​

​

John 20:21 (AKJV/PCE)​

(20:21) Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you. ​

 

[Derf]

So... to you... "hanging out with gentiles" is the same as ministering to them?

Absolutely! Especially since Jews weren't supposed to be hanging out with Gentiles, according to the Jews of Peter's day. And if those at Jerusalem were so fervent to follow the law, they wouldn't hang out with Gentiles. Neither would they live like Gentiles, as Peter was doing.

Your emotionalism is not going to help you understand the truth.

Begging the question is a logical fallacy.

IN THE BODY OF CHRIST, yes. I've made that clear already.

Right...that same body Peter and Barnabas were a part of. Not to mention Silas, sent from Jerusalem to the Gentiles.

Peter, James and John agreed to limit their ministry to the circumcision.

Gal 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:9) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. ​

Their agreement did not mean that Peter was allergic to gentiles. But Peter and the eleven were called to minister to Israel, just like Jesus was. Jesus sent them AS His father had sent Him.

Matt 15:24 (AKJV/PCE)​

(15:24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ​

​

John 20:21 (AKJV/PCE)​

(20:21) Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you. ​

Jesus was sent from heaven. Peter wasn't. Jesus was sent to die for our sins. Peter wasn't. So Jesus didn't send Peter EXACTLY the way He was sent. Your assumption that Peter and all of Peter's disciples (those he taught) would only have a message for Jews is contradicted by Jesus' sending commission. Jesus was sent to the Jews because His mission was not to take the gospel to the whole world. Peter's, along with the other apostles' was, after taking it to the Jews. "To Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth." Which is what they did, eventually.

So, while I agree that Peter agree to limit his ministry to the Jews (at least at first), for the specific purpose of raising up the Jewish nation to accomplish that which they were meant to do--to bring the message of the messiah to the whole world--it wasn't intended to be for a different gospel, a different way to be saved. Both Paul and Peter make that clear.

 

[Right Divider]

Absolutely!

Delusional...

Especially since Jews weren't supposed to be hanging out with Gentiles, according to the Jews of Peter's day.

Why do you care about what the "Jews of Peter's day" said? Why would Peter care? Peter got his instructions from God and not from the "Jew's of the day".

And if those at Jerusalem were so fervent to follow the law, they wouldn't hang out with Gentiles. Neither would they live like Gentiles, as Peter was doing.

Peter was explicitly sent to a gentile family by God, Acts 10. Note that Acts 10 is after Christ called Paul.

Right...that same body Peter and Barnabas were a part of.

Begging the question AGAIN.

Not to mention Silas, sent from Jerusalem to the Gentiles.

You leave out a lot of important details about this "sending".

Jesus was sent from heaven. Peter wasn't. Jesus was sent to die for our sins. Peter wasn't.

I love the silliness... it's so cute when you go off the rails.

So Jesus didn't send Peter EXACTLY the way He was sent.

Again, Jesus was sent to Israel and that is EXACTLY to whom Peter and the eleven were sent. That is why God had to give Peter special instructions to go to Cornelius.

Your assumption that Peter and all of Peter's disciples (those he taught) would only have a message for Jews is contradicted by Jesus' sending commission. Jesus was sent to the Jews because His mission was not to take the gospel to the whole world. Peter's, along with the other apostles' was, after taking it to the Jews. "To Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth." Which is what they did, eventually.

Never happened... something else intervened. You just plug your ears to the truth.

So, while I agree that Peter agree to limit his ministry to the Jews (at least at first), for the specific purpose of raising up the Jewish nation to accomplish that which they were meant to do--to bring the message of the messiah to the whole world--it wasn't intended to be for a different gospel, a different way to be saved. Both Paul and Peter make that clear.

The gospel of the kingdom is not the gospel of the grace of God... no matter how you rail against it.

https://graceambassadors.com/midacts/the-gospel-of-the-kingdom-vs-the-gospel-of-the-grace-of-god