Is Jesus coming soon?

[glorydaz]

That is not true. 1 John 2:18 Children it i s the last hour, and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming is coming, even so now many antichrists have come.
Will there be a time immediately preceding the second coming that a human comes taking control of state powers to persecute the church (all believers then living) in a way as never before? I believe that is so. But antichrist encompasses all the spiritual forces that are God's enemies and seek to destroy His church. In the spiritual realm as seen in Revelation it is the counterfeit trinity. Satan (the dragon), the beast, the false prophet.
It counterfeits the Trinity in this way:
The Father (originates plan, the Son,(executes the plan) the Holy Spirit (witness, as in advocate, proclaim).

I'm speaking of the Antichrist of the end days.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

This is speaking of when he will stand in the HOLY PLACE. Let them in Judaea flee.

To support your viewpoint you give me scriptures such as the above---it sounds like to say that Paul in these scriptures is speaking of what is known in the futurist view as the tribulation period----simply because they speak of the wrath of God. I may be missing something, and suspect I am, so if you could clarify what it is you are presenting them for exactly, it would help me. But these scriptures are not even discussing the second coming of Christ or a specific period of tribulation. They are discussing appropriate Christian behavior. We are not to do those things we did formerly, and that unbelievers continue in, because it is the very thing God's wrath comes against.

I was only showing you that the church will not face the wrath of God, and we know that Revelation is dealing with God's wrath.

• 
  
• Revelation 6:16
  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrathof the Lamb:
  
  
• Revelation 6:17
  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The wrath of God is always against evil. There will be a day of final judgement, when His wrath is poured out in full. And believers are not appointed to face that wrath because they belong to the King who is defending them, and it is going on in the heavenlies, this war against the saints, all the time. It reaches a climax just before the second coming when the war is won---in the heavenlies, though it plays out on earth. The core message of Revelation is the power of God over all His enemies and His protection of the saints in Christ. That does not mean that we will not be witnesses of it, or that we won't witness the wrath of God. It means it can not take us out of His hands. God's wrath will not come against us. It is what Jesus saved us from---facing His wrath against us as sinners. All the series of judgments in Revelation echo each other. In some we see what God is doing and who He is, and His purpose. In others we see what the dragon is doing and his purpose. We see a birds eye view of what is happening in the spiritual war and how if affects the saints. We see all the judgments mentioned active on earth now and have since the resurrection as partial fulfillment of the final battle and the second coming. Revelation is given as encouragement and comfort for the saints in the midst of persecution and suffering. Not as a timeline.

God's wrath will not touch the 144,000 Jews. We aren't present during the Great Tribulation which is actually all the wrath of God. As soon as the address to the churches is finished the seals begin to be opened and God's wrath is upon the earth.

Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Right after the churches are spoken of we see this. I personally think this may be the same Trumpet voice we hear when the Lord is calling us up to meet Him in the air. Notice the door opened in heaven. This is my own opinion....no one else needs to heed it at all.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

To say all the series of judgments as separate and future and contained within a seven year period in which the church (all believers) is not even present, makes it useless to the people to whom John was writing---the saints, Jew and Gentile alike. It becomes simply something for future believers to speculate over. Not to mention, which I mentioned before and would appreciate a comment on, the exact day of His second coming could be pinpointed if the church was raptured out and that began this seven year period before the second coming. And the Bible clearly tells us, Jesus Himself tells us, that we cannot do this and will not be able to. His message is there will be no specific warning---which the vanishing of millions of people all at once,---so we are to watch and pray and be ready.

God took care of that contingency already. And this IS talking about the 2nd Coming.

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Also, notice the three different groups. I just found this and thought it might be helpful with some of these verses.

1 Cor. 10:32
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

 

[Arial]

I'm speaking of the Antichrist of the end days.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

This is speaking of when he will stand in the HOLY PLACE. Let them in Judaea flee.




I was only showing you that the church will not face the wrath of God, and we know that Revelation is dealing with God's wrath.

• 
  
• Revelation 6:16
  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrathof the Lamb:
  
  
• Revelation 6:17
  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

God's wrath will not touch the 144,000 Jews. We aren't present during the Great Tribulation which is actually all the wrath of God. As soon as the address to the churches is finished the seals begin to be opened and God's wrath is upon the earth.

Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Right after the churches are spoken of we see this. I personally think this may be the same Trumpet voice we hear when the Lord is calling us up to meet Him in the air. Notice the door opened in heaven. This is my own opinion....no one else needs to heed it at all.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

God took care of that contingency already. And this IS talking about the 2nd Coming.

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Also, notice the three different groups. I just found this and thought it might be helpful with some of these verses.

1 Cor. 10:32
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

I am sort of at my limit of repeating the same things over again. I will just say that you are considering some things as being the same thing every time they appear. So far you have just countered the positions I put forth with repeated scriptures, making them your claim to your view. And there is no shaking you from your view, and I am not trying to do that. What I am not getting from this discussion is any actual look into and comment on most of what I say. And you are approaching Revelation, as most of us do, as a puzzle to be solved when the very title presents itself as things being revealed, not needing puzzled out. It fits in with the rest of the Bible, presenting all the same truths we see in the rest of the NT. It is a particular type of writing and must be interpreted accordingly. It is using images and symbols and symbolic numbers, visions, constant allusions to the OT prophets etc. The symbolism of the numbers used is glaringly obvious and mean something in its interpretation. It has a specific structure. I have started a thread on all these things and you can follow along and comment if you so desire. If it gets no responses, I will probably abandon it, and probably the forum. Learning doesn't seem to be a curiosity or a desire on the site for most. So presenting new ideas, those we are not familiar with and wedded to, with nothing to fight about, is an exercise in futility. That is why I guess, they very seldom show up, though some have, but they just sit there.

 

[glorydaz]

I am sort of at my limit of repeating the same things over again. I will just say that you are considering some things as being the same thing every time they appear. So far you have just countered the positions I put forth with repeated scriptures, making them your claim to your view. And there is no shaking you from your view, and I am not trying to do that. What I am not getting from this discussion is any actual look into and comment on most of what I say. And you are approaching Revelation, as most of us do, as a puzzle to be solved when the very title presents itself as things being revealed, not needing puzzled out. It fits in with the rest of the Bible, presenting all the same truths we see in the rest of the NT. It is a particular type of writing and must be interpreted accordingly. It is using images and symbols and symbolic numbers, visions, constant allusions to the OT prophets etc. The symbolism of the numbers used is glaringly obvious and mean something in its interpretation. It has a specific structure. I have started a thread on all these things and you can follow along and comment if you so desire. If it gets no responses, I will probably abandon it, and probably the forum. Learning doesn't seem to be a curiosity or a desire on the site for most. So presenting new ideas, those we are not familiar with and wedded to, with nothing to fight about, is an exercise in futility. That is why I guess, they very seldom show up, though some have, but they just sit there.

My interest in this topic is the Pretrib rapture. Of course I'll concentrate on that. I do skim past a lot of what you say because I'm not interested in symbolism etc. and I don't believe Revelation holds as much as you think. I've been back and forwards and up and down with Revelation for many years, so you might as well give up on the idea that I'll be hearing any "new ideas" from you. As far as being "wedded", I've been wedded to mid trib, post trib, chapters 1-6 being repeated over and over. Been there done that. Perhaps you should think as much about listening and sharing as you do teaching. There are some very good theologians on this forum, and I'm hoping you chill a bit....patience is a virtue.

 

[Tambora]

You won't find "tribulation" in Daniel.
You won't find "tribulation" and "7 years" (in any form) in any verse in scripture.

But you will find "tribulation" multiple times as something the people of God are going through.