I've been down the mid-trib road too.
it made me lean even more towards the rapture being another description of the end time resurrection.
But I still listen to all the viewpoints presented.
Is Jesus coming soon?
- Thread starter Gary K
- Start date
it made me lean even more towards the rapture being another description of the end time resurrection.
But I still listen to all the viewpoints presented.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I see great times ahead.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
So, do you think all these verses are talking about the same event?
glorydaz
Well-known member
Do you see any mention of the church after chapter 5?
I don’t see any mention of the church after chapter 3.
Why wouldn't they be the same?
You have the Son of Man descending with His holy angels to rescue believers. (the harvest)
You have the trumpet.
Matthew 16 ESV
(27) For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.
Matthew 25 ESV
(31) “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Matthew 24 ESV
(27) For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
(28) Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
(29) “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
(30) Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Ah, you notice those are all different verses than I gave you.
With His holy angels...that alone is different. Those are talking about after the Tribulation
glorydaz
Well-known member
Thank you, that's better yet. Proving the church has been raptured.
It's the same message in all of them.
It's not different at all.
"Saints" in your 1 Thes 3:13 verse is literally "holy ones".
The same term for the OT (and the book of Enoch) use of the thousands of angels that accompany the Lord at His return.
The same that Jude speaks of:
Jude 1 ESV
(14) It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones,
glorydaz
Well-known member
Is it? My verses speak of our going to meet the Lord in the air, and yours speak of the Lord coming down.
The difference is that Paul always refers to the church as saints.
He has stated that the dead in Christ shall be caught up and then we which are alive will meet the Lord in the air.
Also, there is the difference of the Trump and the trumpets.
The Trump of God is the trumpet voice, not the trumpets given the angels to blow.
- Revelation 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
- Revelation 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
- Revelation 8:2
And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
Thessalonians is used for the pre-trib rapture view.
But when you read through the whole narrative of the Thessalonian letters we see that they are suffering from hardships and being heavily accused and persecuted from both sides, pagan Gentiles and Christ rejecting Jews alike.
In other words, they are being persecuted by every nation (Israel and Gentile), ie. the whole world.
Paul extorts them to stand fast in their faith through the persecutions, endure through the persecutions, and be assured that their reward will be great when the Day of the Lord comes to judge the nations and put an end to the accusers and persecutors.
This is Paul speaking to the persecuted Church (the body of Christ) and telling them when the persecuted body of Christ will get their relief.
The Thessalonian letters do not depict a Church that will not be here through troubled times, and it does not depict that their suffering will end until the time when the Lord returns in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on the accusers and persecutors.
Paul's message to the Church is for them to endure, stand fast, and keep the faith until that day arrives when Christ returns to give them relief.
But when you read through the whole narrative of the Thessalonian letters we see that they are suffering from hardships and being heavily accused and persecuted from both sides, pagan Gentiles and Christ rejecting Jews alike.
In other words, they are being persecuted by every nation (Israel and Gentile), ie. the whole world.
Paul extorts them to stand fast in their faith through the persecutions, endure through the persecutions, and be assured that their reward will be great when the Day of the Lord comes to judge the nations and put an end to the accusers and persecutors.
2 Thessalonians 1 ESV
(5) This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering—
(6) since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
(7) and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
(8) in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
(9) They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
This is Paul speaking to the persecuted Church (the body of Christ) and telling them when the persecuted body of Christ will get their relief.
The Thessalonian letters do not depict a Church that will not be here through troubled times, and it does not depict that their suffering will end until the time when the Lord returns in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on the accusers and persecutors.
Paul's message to the Church is for them to endure, stand fast, and keep the faith until that day arrives when Christ returns to give them relief.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Except for what Paul already said in 1 Thessalonian 4:
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
In the scripture you gave, Tam, Paul is saying "rest with us" be comforted because He will come with his mighty angels in flaming fire to take vengeance. So this is talking about the coming of the Lord, and the church will already be gone.
2 Thess. 1:7-10
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
I don't think so.
Paul has spent the better portion of the Thessalonian letters telling the Church they must stand fast and endure through their suffering of oppression because they will get relief and be vindicated when the Lord comes to take vengeance on the oppressors.
That is what we comfort each other with through our suffering ------ that our suffering is nothing compared to the eternal joy we will have.
The Church is still being oppresesd to this day, and Paul specifically tells the Church that it won't be until the Lord returns to execute vengeance that the Church gets relief from oppression.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I think the key is in the voice of the Trumpet. The Trumpet voice. Not the trumpets the angels sound, but the VOICE.
Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Could very well be when the church hears the trumpet voice and is taken up to meet the Lord in the air. He is also addressing the churches. That's certainly different than when the Lord comes in Power and Great glory.
Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. And notice the Son of man coming with POWER AND GREAT GLORY.
Luke 21:
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
They're different. One is in the twinkling of an eye, and the other is a big production.
1 Thessalonians 4:
6 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Here's the twinkling of the eye verses:
1 Corinthians 15 KJV
(50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(55) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
(56) The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
(57) But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(58) Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
Notice Paul's instruction for the Church has not changed.
He is still telling the Church to stand fast just as he did throughout the Thessalonian letters.
(verse 58 above)
And as per the trumpet sound/voice, Paul tells us this happens at the last trump.
(verse 52 above)
How many last trumps can there be when death is swallowed up in victory???
Arial
Active member
I am beginning to see it this way too. Paul, and the other apostles are repeatedly encouraging the church to stand fast and to be strengthened, and telling them why they can do so. Revelation is doing the same thing from the perspective of God. He is giving a picture story of what is going on in the spiritual realm in the battle between spiritual forces and how that is what is affecting what is happening to us on Earth. And this spiritual battle has been going on, and is going on now. In Revelation we see the past, the present and the future inside the spiritual realm. And the present is now. It was now for Jesus, the apostles and all believers then, was the same now, that John wrote from and has been the same now through all the church age. It is this age the Bible speaks of. In addition Revelation shows us from God's perspective the age to come. Revelation is a letter, meant to be read aloud to those who received it, and is given to and relevant to all believers of all time, as encouragement and strengthening. God, Father Son and Holy Spirit, is the subject and center of the entire book.
This is how I am beginning to see it anyway and in this study I am doing, am moving away from the idea of a rapture----which admittedly is hard to do. It is a relative new idea, the rapture, but one that has permeated the church since at least the late 60's and 70's so it is ingrained in most of us. We do not want to go through what we see during the tribulation period, and we would prefer to be in a time when we are raptured before we go through whatever experience leads to our bodily death. But we are in the tribulation already, and church always has been, if this view I am investigating is correct. That is why John was given the letter to write to the churches. Sorting through this regarding the judgments of Revelation is another area that I am still working through, putting them in their proper place and perspective. A discussion such as this should be a great help.
Another thing that doesn't add up to the "left behind" doctrine is the abomination of desolation.
In Daniel we see this happening during the Greek empire (the 3rd beast) that was split between the 4 generals of Alexander.
Hardly no scholar at all doubts that Antiochus Epiphanes (of the 3rd beast) was when the type of the abomination happened.
This comes long before the 4th and final beast/kingdom (assuming the 4th is the Roman empire).
And if the anitchirst is the one that does the abomination of desolation, then it happens before the 4th and final beast/kingdom rises to power.
And one other thing ......
The first 3 beast are given animal names of animals that are earthly animals ----- lion, bear, leopard.
But the 4th beast is not given any earthly animal name.
I have my suspicions that the 4th beast is not earthly, but is a beast/kingdom of a supernatural type.
In Daniel we see this happening during the Greek empire (the 3rd beast) that was split between the 4 generals of Alexander.
Hardly no scholar at all doubts that Antiochus Epiphanes (of the 3rd beast) was when the type of the abomination happened.
This comes long before the 4th and final beast/kingdom (assuming the 4th is the Roman empire).
And if the anitchirst is the one that does the abomination of desolation, then it happens before the 4th and final beast/kingdom rises to power.
And one other thing ......
The first 3 beast are given animal names of animals that are earthly animals ----- lion, bear, leopard.
But the 4th beast is not given any earthly animal name.
I have my suspicions that the 4th beast is not earthly, but is a beast/kingdom of a supernatural type.
Just a thought:Caught up in the air to be with the Lord doesn’t sound like returning to establish His kingdom.
Arial
Active member
I think you are right. I just reread Daniel 7, and we see in there exactly what we see in Revelation through the idealist school of interpretation. Which states that the events in Rev are a repeated pattern of prophecy fulfillment. Dan 7 when I just read it nearly took my breath away! It is a synopsis of Revelation in many areas.
And this is what I have learned about the beast as presented in Revelation. The beast is a counterfeit of Christ. We find this counterfeit throughout Revelation as well as the Holy Trinity which it counterfeits. Father, Son, Holy Spirit: Satan, the beast, the false prophet. The beast rising out of the sea represents persecuting power. The beast combines features of the four kingdoms, so is a worldly kingdom summing up all of them. Meaning it is sourced from a supernatural or spiritual realm, playing out through earthly kingdoms and the people of the earth. As Christ' kingdom is spiritual but its fulfillment is worked out on the earth because it is for us. The battle itself is sourced in the supernatural realm.
And this would be the counterfeit: The beast is an image of Satan who brought him forth (13:1), just as Christ is the exact image of God, begotten by the Father (Col 1:15). The beast has 10 crowns, Christ has many crowns; the Beast has blasphemous names written on him, Christ has worthy names; the Beast makes war against the saints, Christ makes war against the beast. Just to give a few.
I am coming to just beginning to see something that before had not crossed my mind. The Bible tells us that Christ is seated at the right hand of God because His earthly work is complete. It is easy to see Him by that wording, as not being active where He is. Not true. He has won the battle of the redemption of the saints, the Holy Spirit sealing them in Him. But He is still at war and fighting for us. That is what we see in Revelation-----among other things.
Arial
Active member
Yes they are the same event and it comes after the last battle is won against God's enemies and Christ returns.
In both 1 and 2 Thessalonians Paul is dealing with specific issues in that church. He and Silas and Timothy had only a brief stay with that church, teaching them, before a riot broke out and they were whisked away under cover of night. There wasn't time evidently, and supported by the text itself, to to extensive teaching on the return of Christ. (Acts 17;5-12) In addition to this church being harassed and persecuted, a false teaching had come in. That Christ had already returned and the dead were more blessed than those who remained alive. What Paul countered this teaching and assured them that those dead in Christ at His second coming, including all the OT dead in Christ and all NT believers who died before His second coming, and those who were alive at His second coming were all on equal footing. All would be together with Him forever. That is also the usage of the word rapture. The same as gathered together in 1 Cor 15:52. Both letters are entirely pastoral, for comfort and encouragement to strengthen them to endure. They are not meant to give a detailed end times chronology, as I see it.
Hey there, glad to have another voice in this discussion as we explore all possible meanings.
I'll give what some scholars say about that verse.
Let me list it and highlight the word phrase I want to focus on.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
There are scholars of the Greek language that explain that this term (to meet) is one of a welcoming party of the one they have been waiting for to arrive.
It only appears in four verses in the NT.
The other three are:
Paul arrives in Rome and they go out to welcome him, not leave with him.
Acts 28:15 KJV
(15) And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.
Parable of the Ten Virgins: They go out to welcome Him, not leave with Him.
Matthew 25:1 KJV
(1) Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
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(6) And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.