Is Jesus coming soon?

[glorydaz]

Here's the twinkling of the eye verses:

1 Corinthians 15 KJV​

(50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.​

(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,​

(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.​

(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

(54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.​

(55) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?​

(56) The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.​

(57) But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.​

(58) Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.​

Notice Paul's instruction for the Church has not changed.
He is still telling the Church to stand fast just as he did throughout the Thessalonian letters.
(verse 58 above)

And as per the trumpet sound/voice, Paul tells us this happens at the last trump.
(verse 52 above)
How many last trumps can there be when death is swallowed up in victory???

Okay smarty pants.

Here's the twinkling of the eye verses:

1 Corinthians 15 KJV​

(50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.​

(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,​

(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.​

(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

(54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.​

(55) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?​

(56) The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.​

(57) But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.​

(58) Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.​

Notice Paul's instruction for the Church has not changed.
He is still telling the Church to stand fast just as he did throughout the Thessalonian letters.
(verse 58 above)

And as per the trumpet sound/voice, Paul tells us this happens at the last trump.
(verse 52 above)
How many last trumps can there be when death is swallowed up in victory???

The last Trump is God calling the church to meet him in the air.

I really think the 1 Cor. 15 goes along with these. It's the voice of the trumpet....when God is calling His people, the first to give the Law and the second and last to call us up at the rapture....BEFORE the wrath of God is reigned down.

Exodus 19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

1 Thessalonian 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The other trumpets are blown by angels well into the wrath. You can't read what is happening on this earth and think when those other trumpets are sound and think the church will be here.

 

[glorydaz]

I am beginning to see it this way too. Paul, and the other apostles are repeatedly encouraging the church to stand fast and to be strengthened, and telling them why they can do so. Revelation is doing the same thing from the perspective of God. He is giving a picture story of what is going on in the spiritual realm in the battle between spiritual forces and how that is what is affecting what is happening to us on Earth. And this spiritual battle has been going on, and is going on now. In Revelation we see the past, the present and the future inside the spiritual realm. And the present is now. It was now for Jesus, the apostles and all believers then, was the same now, that John wrote from and has been the same now through all the church age. It is this age the Bible speaks of. In addition Revelation shows us from God's perspective the age to come. Revelation is a letter, meant to be read aloud to those who received it, and is given to and relevant to all believers of all time, as encouragement and strengthening. God, Father Son and Holy Spirit, is the subject and center of the entire book.

This is how I am beginning to see it anyway and in this study I am doing, am moving away from the idea of a rapture----which admittedly is hard to do. It is a relative new idea, the rapture, but one that has permeated the church since at least the late 60's and 70's so it is ingrained in most of us. We do not want to go through what we see during the tribulation period, and we would prefer to be in a time when we are raptured before we go through whatever experience leads to our bodily death. But we are in the tribulation already, and church always has been, if this view I am investigating is correct. That is why John was given the letter to write to the churches. Sorting through this regarding the judgments of Revelation is another area that I am still working through, putting them in their proper place and perspective. A discussion such as this should be a great help.

Nope we're not in the Tribulation Matthew is talking about. In fact, it's during the time the antichrist attacks Jerusalem. Notice the "holy place"

And enduring to the end is always for the Jews...never the church.

Matt. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

 

[glorydaz]

Just a thought:Caught up in the air to be with the Lord doesn’t sound like returning to establish His kingdom.

And it isn't. The rapture is not the same as the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[glorydaz]

Yes they are the same event and it comes after the last battle is won against God's enemies and Christ returns.

In both 1 and 2 Thessalonians Paul is dealing with specific issues in that church. He and Silas and Timothy had only a brief stay with that church, teaching them, before a riot broke out and they were whisked away under cover of night. There wasn't time evidently, and supported by the text itself, to to extensive teaching on the return of Christ. (Acts 17;5-12) In addition to this church being harassed and persecuted, a false teaching had come in. That Christ had already returned and the dead were more blessed than those who remained alive. What Paul countered this teaching and assured them that those dead in Christ at His second coming, including all the OT dead in Christ and all NT believers who died before His second coming, and those who were alive at His second coming were all on equal footing. All would be together with Him forever. That is also the usage of the word rapture. The same as gathered together in 1 Cor 15:52. Both letters are entirely pastoral, for comfort and encouragement to strengthen them to endure. They are not meant to give a detailed end times chronology, as I see it.

Alright you guys. Hold your horses. Pay attention to what Paul is saying here. First he's telling them not to believe claims that the day of Christ is at hand. He says the man of sin must be revealed and a falling away.

2 Thessalonians 2:
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Notice when speaking of that day Paul says, "them, they, they, them, they, they.....never us or we.


2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[Tambora]

Alright you guys. Hold your horses. Pay attention to what Paul is saying here. First he's telling them not to believe claims that the day of Christ is at hand. He says the man of sin must be revealed and a falling away.

2 Thessalonians 2:
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Notice when speaking of that day Paul says, "them, they, they, them, they, they.....never us or we.


2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Yeah, them and they is unbelievers.
We and our is believers.

Paul is telling the Church that the coming of the Lord has not happened and won't happen until after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed.
Why would he then change his mind and tell the Church that the coming of the Lord would happen before the falling away and the man of sin revealed???
Especially when he has repeatedly told the Church to stand firm and endure.

 

[glorydaz]

Yeah, them and they is unbelievers.
We and our is believers.

Paul is telling the Church that the coming of the Lord has not happened and won't happen until after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed.
Why would he then change his mind and tell the Church that the coming of the Lord would happen before the falling away and the man of sin revealed???
Especially when he has repeatedly told the Church to stand firm and endure.

Paul is warning the church not to fall for any false antichrists or signs.

And he's talking about the Second Coming....not when we are called up to meet the Lord in the air.

Paul knows the church will always have tribulations and we must endure those. But we're talking about Tribulation like has never been before or ever will be again. And the Wrath....which we are not appointed to.

 

[Tambora]

Paul is warning the church not to fall for any false antichrists or signs.

And he's talking about the Second Coming....not when we are called up to meet the Lord in the air.

Paul knows the church will always have tribulations and we must endure those. But we're talking about Tribulation like has never been before or ever will be again. And the Wrath....which we are not appointed to.

Ahh, let me ask you this about the time so terrible that it has never been before or ever will be.
I would say the flood has been the worst of history so far.
But even then the earth was still the same earth, and opposition to God still existed there.

The time that Satan is really pissed and gets busy is after the 1000 years when he is released from the bottomless pit.
It's so bad that God then has to burn it all down and start a new earth with no opposition anymore.

So why do you choose the time of opposition to God before the 1000 years as being the worst time that will ever be instead of the time after the 1000 years?

 

[Tambora]

More fodder for the exploring seekers of truth.

Revelation 16:16 KJV
(16) And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


It's not the plain of Megiddo.

Dr. Michael Heiser breaks down the term Armageddon in Hebrew.

short 8 minute video

 

[Arial]

Nope we're not in the Tribulation Matthew is talking about. In fact, it's during the time the antichrist attacks Jerusalem. Notice the "holy place"

In 66 A.D. the Jewish Wars began with the revolt by the Jews of Roman authority. Titus and his Roman legions arrived at the outermost northern wall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. (during Passover). After five months the walls were battered down and the Temple was burned Not one stone standing upon another. Over one million Jews were killed. According to Eusebius, the Christians saw the might of the Roman army and fled to Pella. History and Roman culture for cleansing a place for their gods, supports that Titus likely sacrifice a pig in the Temple.

And enduring to the end is always for the Jews...never the church.

Matt. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

I do not see where these verses say that enduring to the end applies only to Jews. Many of Paul's epistles are directed at predominately but not entirely Gentile churches. And much of what he writes, as in both Thess. concerns Christians enduring to the end. 1 Tim is written to Timothy with that as its focus. Jesus on the other hand was speaking at the time to Jews and it was Jerusalem and the Temple that were to be destroyed, so naturally He would say what He did.

 

[glorydaz]

Ahh, let me ask you this about the time so terrible that it has never been before or ever will be.
I would say the flood has been the worst of history so far.
But even then the earth was still the same earth, and opposition to God still existed there.

The time that Satan is really pissed and gets busy is after the 1000 years when he is released from the bottomless pit.
It's so bad that God then has to burn it all down and start a new earth with no opposition anymore.

So why do you choose the time of opposition to God before the 1000 years as being the worst time that will ever be instead of the time after the 1000 years?

Here Matthew is talking about the Great Tribulation that will come upon the nation of Israel and the unbelieving world. I think it's all a part of God's Wrath, before the 1000 year kingdom.

Who was Matt. talking to and who was he talking about? The Jews.

Matt. 24:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


As I see it, God's wrath does some pretty good damage. This is only part of it.
And it's also why I believe the church has been taken up already.

Revelation 8:
7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

 

[glorydaz]

In 66 A.D. the Jewish Wars began with the revolt by the Jews of Roman authority. Titus and his Roman legions arrived at the outermost northern wall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. (during Passover). After five months the walls were battered down and the Temple was burned Not one stone standing upon another. Over one million Jews were killed. According to Eusebius, the Christians saw the might of the Roman army and fled to Pella. History and Roman culture for cleansing a place for their gods, supports that Titus likely sacrifice a pig in the Temple.

Hi Arial, You have to admit that none of this stuff happened in 70AD.

Matt. 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I do not see where these verses say that enduring to the end applies only to Jews. Many of Paul's epistles are directed at predominately but not entirely Gentile churches. And much of what he writes, as in both Thess. concerns Christians enduring to the end. 1 Tim is written to Timothy with that as its focus. Jesus on the other hand was speaking at the time to Jews and it was Jerusalem and the Temple that were to be destroyed, so naturally He would say what He did.he same shall be saved.

• Matthew 24:13
  But he that shall endureunto the end, the same shall be saved.
  
  
• Mark 13:13
  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Paul never tells us to endure to the end.

1 Cor. 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Arial]

Hi Arial, You have to admit that none of this stuff happened in 70AD.

Matt. 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Of course they haven't happened yet. These verses are about the second coming. However what I said happened in 70 A.D. did happen, which suggests that we cannot take what Jesus said in Matt 24:4-31 to all be about a contained period of time (seven literal years of tribulation just before His coming.) What Jesus is telling His disciples concerns an age, that time period between His ascension and His second coming. Let's go back to the question they asked and why they asked it. v. 1-3 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them " Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another. that shall not be thrown down." Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us when will these things be? And what will be the signs of Your coming, and the end of the age?"

First they are asking about an age (a period of time), what are the signs of His coming, and the signs of the end of the age. Jesus is answering more than one question. Let me interject here, that I believe "all these things" will increase and intensify as we come closer to His second coming, as the war in heaven is intensifying. But we cannot measure that, as we don't have the future to measure against, and therefore cannot pinpoint His second coming by what we see. If, the seven years of tribulation were a literal seven years, and they were preceded by the church being raptured from the earth, the exact day of His second coming could be calculated. Jesus is making it clear in these passages and the rest of chapter 24, that we cannot do that. Not even Jesus, as son of man, had been given that information, though I am sure He has it now.

Verses 4-9 is specific in stating that the things mentioned, wars, pestilence, earthquakes, which emcompasses all our trials and tribulations on earth, cannot be used as a guideline to identify His second coming, but that they will exist always in the age between His resurrection and second coming. He is cautioning them to not be deceived by those who point to these things in much the same way as we are doing to this day. All the things in verses 9-26 are happening now for the followers of Christ and have always been happening and will continue to happen until the final battle is won and Christ returns, having put all HIs enemies under His feet. And after saying all these things, then Jesus addresses His second coming. It will be visible to all the earth. It is at His second coming that all the saints are gathered together, the living and the dead in Christ.

 

[Arial]

• Matthew 24:13
  But he that shall endureunto the end, the same shall be saved.
  
  
• Mark 13:13
  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Paul never tells us to endure to the end.

1 Cor. 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Paul and the other NT writers often speak of enduring to the end.
Heb 3:4: For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
Rev 2:10 Do not fear what you you are about to suffer. Behold the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. (This too has taken place over the course of church history, escalating at times, then receding. Gentile Christians were affected just as believing Jews were.) It took place during the time of John's writing, affecting some of the apostles, and it continues to take place, Even today there are places where this occurs. And remember that everything we have in our NT was written to believers of that generation but for believers of all generations.

Col 1:22-23 He has now reconciled in His body of flesh by His death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before Him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard,----

1Tim 1:18-19 Timothy, my child, I entrust you with this command in keeping with the previous prophecies about you, so that by them you may fight the good fight, holding on to the faith and a good conscience which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith. Most of 1 Tim is to encourage Timothy and strengthen him for what was to come, enduring to the end. The end is the end of a person's earthly life or the second coming, whichever comes first. I still do not see where you arrive at the Matt scriptures being only for Jews.

 

[Tambora]

@glorydaz
@Arial
and anyone else interested.

I went ahead and created a thread for OT imagery used in Revelation.

Revelation imagery in the OT

It is said that Revelation uses more OT imagery than other NT book. However, John does not directly quote OT verses. What he does do is piece together imagery scattered throughout the OT prophets to convey the message of what is going on and why. Thus, one needs to be mindful of the places in...

theologyonline.com

 

[glorydaz]

Of course they haven't happened yet. These verses are about the second coming. However what I said happened in 70 A.D. did happen, which suggests that we cannot take what Jesus said in Matt 24:4-31 to all be about a contained period of time (seven literal years of tribulation just before His coming.) What Jesus is telling His disciples concerns an age, that time period between His ascension and His second coming. Let's go back to the question they asked and why they asked it. v. 1-3 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them " Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another. that shall not be thrown down." Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us when will these things be? And what will be the signs of Your coming, and the end of the age?"

First they are asking about an age (a period of time), what are the signs of His coming, and the signs of the end of the age. Jesus is answering more than one question. Let me interject here, that I believe "all these things" will increase and intensify as we come closer to His second coming, as the war in heaven is intensifying. But we cannot measure that, as we don't have the future to measure against, and therefore cannot pinpoint His second coming by what we see. If, the seven years of tribulation were a literal seven years, and they were preceded by the church being raptured from the earth, the exact day of His second coming could be calculated. Jesus is making it clear in these passages and the rest of chapter 24, that we cannot do that. Not even Jesus, as son of man, had been given that information, though I am sure He has it now.

Verses 4-9 is specific in stating that the things mentioned, wars, pestilence, earthquakes, which emcompasses all our trials and tribulations on earth, cannot be used as a guideline to identify His second coming, but that they will exist always in the age between His resurrection and second coming. He is cautioning them to not be deceived by those who point to these things in much the same way as we are doing to this day. All the things in verses 9-26 are happening now for the followers of Christ and have always been happening and will continue to happen until the final battle is won and Christ returns, having put all HIs enemies under His feet. And after saying all these things, then Jesus addresses His second coming. It will be visible to all the earth. It is at His second coming that all the saints are gathered together, the living and the dead in Christ.

Actually, nothing in Matt. 24 is speaking of any seven year timeline. That can be found in Daniel.

I'm glad to see, though, that you recognize this is speaking of Jesus' 2nd coming. It will, indeed, be after the GREAT TRIBULATION which includes all the wrath which the church is NOT appointed to. Matt. 24 is speaking of the Lord coming down.

Paul, on the other hand, is talking about the church being called up to meet the Lord in the air. Two different things and two different time periods. The church will not be here to see the antichrist being revealed.

 

[Arial]

Actually, nothing in Matt. 24 is speaking of any seven year timeline. That can be found in Daniel.

I'm glad to see, though, that you recognize this is speaking of Jesus' 2nd coming. It will, indeed, be after the GREAT TRIBULATION which includes all the wrath which the church is NOT appointed to. Matt. 24 is speaking of the Lord coming down.

Paul, on the other hand, is talking about the church being called up to meet the Lord in the air. Two different things and two different time periods. The church will not be here to see the antichrist being revealed.

You arrive at your conclusions because of your starting point. Which is the futurist school of interpretation. Which states that fulfillment will occur during a period of final crisis just before the second coming. This is the most prevalent view in the church today, which does not make it wrong and does not make it right. There are other ways to see it. From the idealist view says that the scenes of Revelation depict principles of spiritual war, not specific events. The principles are operative throughout the church age and may have repeated embodiments. We can find many of these embodiments within the Bible itself, i.e. the prophecy of Daniel, and in our own history. In the first part of Matt 24 we see it. Jesus spoke of something that happened in 70 A.D. and will have a further fulfillment sometime in the future. But there is no Temple in Israel anymore. It is only in those verses 24-27 that Jesus begins to speak of His second coming.

What you refer to Paul as talking about the church being called up to meet the Lord in the air, pre-tribulation, is not talking about that at all. He is talking about the second coming. The idea of a pre-trib rapture and the church being gone, and only Jews and unbelievers going through a seven year period of tribulation, is actually laid over the text. Brought into it from the outside and is a modern day concept, not a historic one. If it is laid over all the texts, then you will be unable to see what else might be there. I know. Been there, done that. The church, Christ's church, is all those joined to Him through faith.

 

[glorydaz]

Paul and the other NT writers often speak of enduring to the end.
Heb 3:4: For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
Rev 2:10 Do not fear what you you are about to suffer. Behold the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. (This too has taken place over the course of church history, escalating at times, then receding. Gentile Christians were affected just as believing Jews were.) It took place during the time of John's writing, affecting some of the apostles, and it continues to take place, Even today there are places where this occurs. And remember that everything we have in our NT was written to believers of that generation but for believers of all generations.

I can dispute who those verses are written to and what they say, but you're speaking of something totally different than I am.

Col 1:22-23 He has now reconciled in His body of flesh by His death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before Him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard,----

1Tim 1:18-19 Timothy, my child, I entrust you with this command in keeping with the previous prophecies about you, so that by them you may fight the good fight, holding on to the faith and a good conscience which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith. Most of 1 Tim is to encourage Timothy and strengthen him for what was to come, enduring to the end. The end is the end of a person's earthly life or the second coming, whichever comes first. I still do not see where you arrive at the Matt scriptures being only for Jews.

How about you do me a favor. Read Matthew 23 and 24, then read Matt. 21. There are all kinds of evidences plus we know that Jerusalem is going to be under siege during the last days. Jesus is speaking of the sabbath and the temple etc. Plus the apostles were preaching to the Jews primarily while Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles.

Matt. 21:
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Paul is not saying we must endure to the end to be saved. Which is what I'm talking about.



Matthew i

You arrive at your conclusions because of your starting point. Which is the futurist school of interpretation. Which states that fulfillment will occur during a period of final crisis just before the second coming. This is the most prevalent view in the church today, which does not make it wrong and does not make it right. There are other ways to see it. From the idealist view says that the scenes of Revelation depict principles of spiritual war, not specific events. The principles are operative throughout the church age and may have repeated embodiments. We can find many of these embodiments within the Bible itself, i.e. the prophecy of Daniel, and in our own history. In the first part of Matt 24 we see it. Jesus spoke of something that happened in 70 A.D. and will have a further fulfillment sometime in the future. But there is no Temple in Israel anymore. It is only in those verses 24-27 that Jesus begins to speak of His second coming.

Jesus said it, so I believe it. My starting point is everything Jesus said and everything Paul said about the church. One simply needs to rightly divide scripture not get sidetracked. As far as the Temple in Jerusalem, it will be very easy for them. The church will be raptured before it happens.

What you refer to Paul as talking about the church being called up to meet the Lord in the air, pre-tribulation, is not talking about that at all. He is talking about the second coming. The idea of a pre-trib rapture and the church being gone, and only Jews and unbelievers going through a seven year period of tribulation, is actually laid over the text. Brought into it from the outside and is a modern day concept, not a historic one. If it is laid over all the texts, then you will be unable to see what else might be there. I know. Been there, done that. The church, Christ's church, is all those joined to Him through faith.

You're free to believe what you like, but I think it's playing into satan's hands that the Church is looking for the antichrist instead of our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul is very clear that we are called UP. The second coming is Him coming DOWN.

This is why we are looking up.

 

[Arial]

Jesus said it, so I believe it. My starting point is everything Jesus said and everything Paul said about the church. One simply needs to rightly divide scripture not get sidetracked. As far as the Temple in Jerusalem, it will be very easy for them. The church will be raptured before it happens

Same here and back atcha.

You're free to believe what you like, but I think it's playing into satan's hands that the Church is looking for the antichrist instead of our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul is very clear that we are called UP. The second coming is Him coming DOWN.

OK. This is slipping into a place I am not going with you. This suggesting that what I believe is playing into satan's hands because it is not what you believe. And how you figure the church is looking for the antichrist instead of Jesus is beyond me and a kind of awful thing to say. So If that is where we are going, I think we have reached the conclusion of the discussion.

 

[glorydaz]

Same here and back atcha.

OK. This is slipping into a place I am not going with you. This suggesting that what I believe is playing into satan's hands because it is not what you believe. And how you figure the church is looking for the antichrist instead of Jesus is beyond me and a kind of awful thing to say. So If that is where we are going, I think we have reached the conclusion of the discussion.

Oh dear. We're not slipping into anything. You admitted you beleived in the Pretrib rapture at one time. Perhaps you need to take another look. No nee to be so sensitive. I not accusing you of anything. I'm talking about generalities regarding the post tribulation rapture....which so many are believing. Remember, I don't even know you. We are here discussing the Bible on a Theology forum. It's nothing personal.

Whenever the antichrist is mentioned, the tribulation is well under way. That same Great Tribulation that is described in and which contains the Wrath of God. The wrath of God that comes upon the children of disobedience.

• Ephesians 5:6
  Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
  
  
• Colossians 3:6
  For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

1 Thessalonians 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Revelation 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[Arial]

Whenever the antichrist is mentioned, the tribulation is well under way. That same Great Tribulation that is described in and which contains the Wrath of God. The wrath of God that comes upon the children of disobedience.

• Ephesians 5:6
  Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
  
  
• Colossians 3:6
  For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

That is not true. 1 John 2:18 Children it i s the last hour, and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming is coming, even so now many antichrists have come.
Will there be a time immediately preceding the second coming that a human comes taking control of state powers to persecute the church (all believers then living) in a way as never before? I believe that is so. But antichrist encompasses all the spiritual forces that are God's enemies and seek to destroy His church. In the spiritual realm as seen in Revelation it is the counterfeit trinity. Satan (the dragon), the beast, the false prophet.
It counterfeits the Trinity in this way:
The Father (originates plan, the Son,(executes the plan) the Holy Spirit (witness, as in advocate, proclaim).

To support your viewpoint you give me scriptures such as the above---it sounds like to say that Paul in these scriptures is speaking of what is known in the futurist view as the tribulation period----simply because they speak of the wrath of God. I may be missing something, and suspect I am, so if you could clarify what it is you are presenting them for exactly, it would help me. But these scriptures are not even discussing the second coming of Christ or a specific period of tribulation. They are discussing appropriate Christian behavior. We are not to do those things we did formerly, and that unbelievers continue in, because it is the very thing God's wrath comes against.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Revelation 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The wrath of God is always against evil. There will be a day of final judgement, when His wrath is poured out in full. And believers are not appointed to face that wrath because they belong to the King who is defending them, and it is going on in the heavenlies, this war against the saints, all the time. It reaches a climax just before the second coming when the war is won---in the heavenlies, though it plays out on earth. The core message of Revelation is the power of God over all His enemies and His protection of the saints in Christ. That does not mean that we will not be witnesses of it, or that we won't witness the wrath of God. It means it can not take us out of His hands. God's wrath will not come against us. It is what Jesus saved us from---facing His wrath against us as sinners. All the series of judgments in Revelation echo each other. In some we see what God is doing and who He is, and His purpose. In others we see what the dragon is doing and his purpose. We see a birds eye view of what is happening in the spiritual war and how if affects the saints. We see all the judgments mentioned active on earth now and have since the resurrection as partial fulfillment of the final battle and the second coming. Revelation is given as encouragement and comfort for the saints in the midst of persecution and suffering. Not as a timeline.

To say all the series of judgments as separate and future and contained within a seven year period in which the church (all believers) is not even present, makes it useless to the people to whom John was writing---the saints, Jew and Gentile alike. It becomes simply something for future believers to speculate over. Not to mention, which I mentioned before and would appreciate a comment on, the exact day of His second coming could be pinpointed if the church was raptured out and that began this seven year period before the second coming. And the Bible clearly tells us, Jesus Himself tells us, that we cannot do this and will not be able to. His message is there will be no specific warning---which the vanishing of millions of people all at once,---so we are to watch and pray and be ready.