ECT Is fallen man "totally depraved"?

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Is fallen man, from his beginning, "totally depraved" as the "unlearned" teach or is it as Rom.1:28 teaches us that it is God who turns one over to reprobation and without remedy per Pr.29:1 to show us there is no predestination in it because God would have all men to be saved. cf 2Chr. 36:16.

Genesis 4:26 says, no. Romans 12:3 also says, no, regardless of Paul addressing Christians. Jer. 6:30 speaks of His rejection of His people as reprobate silver.

It is important to understand, if we say we believe the Bible as written, that some verses are stand alone verses even within the context of other truth given, they support. I.e., Faith is given to all men in measure. However, some having more faith than others can be for various reasons with one being the Pentecostal gift of faith Paul infers in Gal 2:20 (KJV) he declares he lives by, faith that reveals itself to be the very Life of Christ Jesus, intimate with God.

In all of this we cans see that fallen man was not totally depraved/reprobate from his birth.
 
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chrysostom said:
he would want to convince us that there is nothing we can do to affect our salvation
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That is correct. Carrying it out further to include the Christian, he means to convince that any righteous works in the afterwards of one's salvation is, unbelief/self righteousness.
 
intojoy

intojoy

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Total depravity means that sin has touched every part of man so that he is unable to seek God on his own.

Total depravity does not mean that every man is as evil as he could be. But that man is incapable of responding to God and if left on his own he would never come to God.
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

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Cross Reference said:
Is fallen man, from his beginning, "totally depraved" as the "unlearned" teach or is it as Rom.1:28 teaches us that it is God who turns one over to reprobation and without remedy per Pr.29:1 to show us there is no predestination in it because God would have all men to be saved. cf 2Chr. 36:16.

Genesis 4:26 says, no. Romans 12:3 also says, no, regardless of Paul addressing Christians. Jer. 6:30 speaks of His rejection of His people as reprobate silver.

It is important to understand, if we say we believe the Bible as written, that some verses are stand alone verses even within the context of other truth given, they support. I.e., Faith is given to all men in measure. However, some having more faith than others can be for various reasons with one being the Pentecostal gift of faith Paul infers in Gal 2:20 (KJV) he declares he lives by, faith that reveals itself to be the very Life of Christ Jesus, intimate with God.

In all of this we cans see that fallen man was not totally depraved/reprobate from his birth.
Click to expand...

The assumption underlying total depravity and God's assessment of man is that God deals with, reckons with man irrespective of his fallen nature, vanity, resulting inability and innate rejection of his Maker. On the other hand, the foundation of partial depravity is inherent goodness and requires that the individual make himself somewhat presentable before God will approach him.

One might say that one of those verses that stands alone is Jeremiah 17:9

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jeremiah 17:9
 
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intojoy said:
Total depravity means that sin has touched every part of man so that he is unable to seek God on his own.

Total depravity does not mean that every man is as evil as he could be. But that man is incapable of responding to God and if left on his own he would never come to God.
Click to expand...

Genesis 4:26 says, no. Romans 12:3 also says, no.

Remember reprobate means "without remedy" because it is God Who performs the reprobation and when it is done it is, irreversible.
 
Nang

Nang

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chrysostom said:
it just takes time to expose false doctrine

it is just taking way too much time with the catholic one
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Your church, at the 2nd Synod at Orange, declared Pelagianism to be heresy.

Pelagious preached that the original sin of Adam only hurt Adam, but did not effect the spiritual/moral condition of his seed, nor the free will of men, who in his teaching, remained virtuous enough to exert their wills to choose to work their own salvation.

Pelagianism thus denied Total Depravity altogether . . .

Since then the RCC has reverted back to this mistaken view of "free will" virtue, and to this day teach a semi-Pelagian error.

Check out the history of your own church, Chrys . . .
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

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nikolai_42 said:
The assumption underlying total depravity and God's assessment of man is that God deals with, reckons with man irrespective of his fallen nature, vanity, resulting inability and innate rejection of his Maker. On the other hand, the foundation of partial depravity is inherent goodness and requires that the individual make himself somewhat presentable before God will approach him.

One might say that one of those verses that stands alone is Jeremiah 17:9

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jeremiah 17:9
Click to expand...

An added thought (and here I speak only for myself since I have only ever seen this referred to by insinuation) :

The argument many make against total depravity is that it makes man basically do nothing in seeking out God. It engenders fatalism and a que sera sera attitude to all things spiritual - thus deadening any chance of bringing a man to God. On the flip side, the one who decries total depravity for a sort of quasi-depravity says he does so to make man responsible (where he sees the Calvinist make responsibility a moot point). This way a man makes inroads to at least seeking God. The problem there is that it makes a man rest on his own devices (to a greater or lesser degree) and trust in himself. I have yet to find a believer of any stripe who believes we should be trusting at all in ourselves (i.e. to any degree).

But consider the bigger picture here. The point of agreement (and I'm not saying these two views converge - just that they touch on the same thing at least the way I read them) is in the need for power. The Pentecostal will espouse the power of God by the Holy Spirit for service (with that, I agree) but also for certain manifestations. But notice the emphasis is on what a man does. The traditional Calvinist will espouse the necessity for God to bring a man to faith and salvation by His own hand. What is necessary for that is the Word coming in power. If the Word comes in power, then it will accomplish that for which it is sent. And the Word is not merely a substitute for the Savior (though it is used in reference to Him). The Word must have its work and it does not do that in a man walking according to the dictates of his own heart or mind. When that Word cuts at the heart, it does something only God can do.

So the emphasis on the spoken word found in the Reformed tradition is not without great import. Indeed, even the modern day Pentecostal movement must trace itself back to Wesley (who, if alive today, would be considered at least neo-Calvinist by many). Wesley was no showboat and he in no way relied on superficiality to get a crowd going. Nor would he have rested on anything but the power of God to convict.

John Wesley said:
“Is man by nature filled with all manner of evil? Is he void of all good? Is he wholly fallen? Is his soul totally corrupted? Or, to come back to the text, is “every imagination of the thoughts of his heart only evil continually?” Allow this, and you are so far a Christian. Deny it, and you are but an Heathen still.” [On Original Sin]
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So how can anyone rest in any of his own strength, ability or inclination in the face of this and the necessity for the Word to come in power in a man?
 
1Mind1Spirit

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
Cross Reference said:
Genesis 4:26 says, no. Romans 12:3 also says, no.

Remember reprobate means "without remedy" because it is God Who performs the reprobation and when it is done it is, irreversible.
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Really?

Let's look at Gen 4:26

26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.



First off realize that Adam and those named in his genealogy are special prophets of God.

Enos means mortal, sickly, frail.

It is no small wonder his teaching was that men needed God.

He taught men to call upon the name of God.

Want some more edification?

Check this out.

found it on a google search, gunna hafta check this forum out now.




http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=3302

We frequently use the familiar term, gospel, or good news. Where is the
first place it appears in the Bible?

The great discovery is that the Bible is a message system.

In Genesis Chapter 5, there is the genealogy of Adam through Noah.
In our Bible, we read the Hebrew names. What do these names mean in
English?

These are the meanings of their names. This will amaze you.

Hebrew / English
Adam: Man
Seth: Appointed
Enosh: Mortal
Kenan: Sorrow
Mahalalel: The Blessed God
Jared: Shall come down
Enoch: Teaching
Methuselah: His death shall bring
Lamech: The Despairing
Noah: Rest, or comfort.

That's rather remarkable:
Man (is) appointed mortal sorrow; (but) the Blessed God shall come down
teaching (that) His death shall bring (the) despairing rest.

Here's the Gospel hidden within a genealogy in Genesis.
It demonstrates that in the earliest chapters of the Book of Genesis, God
had already laid out His plan of redemption for the predicament of
mankind. It is a love story, written in blood on a wooden cross which was
erected in Judea almost 2,000 years ago.

Truly, our God is an awesome God.


Oooops, looks like a shopping site.

Found some wisdom there for free though, how 'bout that?
 
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1Mind1Spirit said:
Really?

Let's look at Gen 4:26

26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.



First off realize that Adam and those named in his genealogy are special prophets of God.
Click to expand...

Really??!! . . .and I don't care what you think the name Enos means!!! . . or others for that matter.
 
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