Is Faith Without Works Dead?

[glorydaz]

That doesn't mean they weren't eventually treated as if they were fellow heirs with Jesus, along with Jews.

Oh heavens no. They were certainly heirs according to the promises. We are merely fellow heirs with them. They were saved exactly as we are. They just remained in their little groups, as Jews are used to doing. Look how hard it was for Peter and the others to be around gentiles. Antisemitism has always been with us.

1 Peter 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.​

 

[Idolater]

Hebrew Catholics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

These guys are the Remnant. Just 500 of them, but such a curious tiny little community. They aren't Judaizers, they don't sin according to Galatians, they might do devotions that echo the Torah and Torah observance, but they are just devotions, something to help them fully develop their gifts of the Holy Spirit, that each and every Christian receives when they are converted /baptized.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Hebrew Catholics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

These guys are the Remnant. Just 500 of them, but such a curious tiny little community. They aren't Judaizers, they don't sin according to Galatians, they might do devotions that echo the Torah and Torah observance, but they are just devotions, something to help them fully develop their gifts of the Holy Spirit, that each and every Christian receives when they are converted /baptized.

No, they are not the Remnant.

The Remnant died out after Paul's dispensation was given. Maybe what they taught has continued, but it's not a matter of what one teaches, it's a matter of what God did. If they are saved, it is in spite of their practices, not because of them.

 

[Bladerunner]

True, but if context says they are God's words to a select group of people, and not to any others, then it's worth quibbling about, perhaps. And quibbling is good if it helps us determine who needs to learn from James' words.

I just can't see that James' words are not applicable to any Christian. Why would one want to argue for faith that has no impact on you?

Mormon

 

[glorydaz]

No, they are not the Remnant.

The Remnant died out after Paul's dispensation was given. Maybe what they taught has continued, but it's not a matter of what one teaches, it's a matter of what God did. If they are saved, it is in spite of their practices, not because of them.

There will always be a remnant. Then, now, and in the future.

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

[glorydaz]

Mormon

Why do you keep saying that?

 

[Derf]

Mormon

What do you mean?

 

[glorydaz]

What do you mean?

Maybe he’s barely escaped that religion, so it just comes blurting out.

 

[Crede]

Ephesians 2:10 (NKJV) - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

This compliments James 2 quite nicely. God has already determined the works that will come from the elect.

 

[glorydaz]

Ephesians 2:10 (NKJV) - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

This compliments James 2 quite nicely. God has already determined the works that will come from the elect.

He didn’t prepare the good works, he prepared us to do good works. Careful not to put the cart before the horse.

 

[Derf]

Ephesians 2:10 (NKJV) - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

This compliments James 2 quite nicely. God has already determined the works that will come from the elect.

So all of our sins are predetermined by God?

 

[JudgeRightly]

There will always be a remnant. Then, now, and in the future.

Because you say so?

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Pointing to a future Remnant is not evidence of, nor does it prove that, a Remnant exists today.

The Remnant are the branches that were not cut off (cf Romans 11).

The program which allows for a Remnant to exist at all to begin with, is currently on hold, was put on hold when Paul encountered Christ on the road to Damascus.

 

[Crede]

So all of our sins are predetermined by God?

Isaiah 46:10 - Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

God decrees everything that happens in time, including sinful acts of people, not that He is the cause of it. I do not assert that God is the creator of sin or the author of evil.

James 1:13 - Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

 

[glorydaz]

Because you say so?

No, because the Bible says so.

Pointing to a future Remnant is not evidence of, nor does it prove that, a Remnant exists today.

So you don’t believe there are any Jews today who are saved?

Do you think the Jews have ceased to exist? Surely not. Hitler wasn’t that thorough, and antisemitism hasn’t managed to wipe them all out.

The Remnant are the branches that were not cut off (cf Romans 11).

That’s correct. Peter and Paul and the other Jewish believers we read about.

The program which allows for a Remnant to exist at all to begin with, is currently on hold, was put on hold when Paul encountered Christ on the road to Damascus.

No, there has always been a remnant. All the believers of Jewish ancestry, including Paul, himself, are considered the remnant.
Thousands of Jews were saved by the Gospel after the cross, and there are saved Jews today. Those are the remnant.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.​

​

There is no “program” on hold. Jews are still being saved, and gentiles are still being saved. When Paul says blindness IN PART has happened to Israel, it does not mean no more Jews are being saved. It simply means the gentiles are crowding in to take advantage of this gift of Grace.​

 

[glorydaz]

Isaiah 46:10 - Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

God decrees everything that happens in time, including sinful acts of people, not that He is the cause of it. I do not assert that God is the creator of sin or the author of evil.

James 1:13 - Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

You quote a verse from Isaiah to claim our SINS are predetermined by God?

And then you say He’s not the creator of sin?
Then you quote a verse that proves your conclusions are in error.

 

[Crede]

You quote a verse from Isaiah to claim our SINS are predetermined by God?

And then you say He’s not the creator of sin?
Then you quote a verse that proves your conclusions are in error.

Yes, God declares EVERYTHING that happens from beginning to end and that would include sin. In fact sin had to be predetermined so that the crucifixion would take place.

Acts 4:27-28 - “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

And I stand by my claim that God does not create sin and I don’t see how I contradicted myself. God does not force anybody to sin.

 

[Idolater]

So all of our sins are predetermined by God?

Whether they commit evil or not doesn't change God's eternal choice He already made about you.

 

[Idolater]

There is no “program” on hold. Jews are still being saved, and gentiles are still being saved. When Paul says blindness IN PART has happened to Israel, it does not mean no more Jews are being saved. It simply means the gentiles are crowding in to take advantage of this gift of Grace.​

It's the irony Paul is trying to explain in Romans 9, with Jacob and Esau. Christ according to the flesh is a descendant of Jacob, and yet Jacob, who here represents Israel and Judah, doesn't believe in Him, but Esau (representing Gentiles) does believe in Him. It's backwards, it's ironic, you'd think if anything it'd be the other way around, and the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would have TROUBLE persuading Gentiles to believe in the JEWISH Messiah—but it's the opposite. GENTILES have trouble persuading JEWS to believe in their OWN Messiah!

 

[Idolater]

Yes, God declares EVERYTHING that happens from beginning to end and that would include sin. In fact sin had to be predetermined so that the crucifixion would take place.

Acts 4:27-28 - “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

And I stand by my claim that God does not create sin and I don’t see how I contradicted myself. God does not force anybody to sin.

He permits or decrees that tens of millions of literal human babies are dismembered maliciously, and you think that many of those babies are in Hell now anyway.

No?

 

[Crede]

He permits or decrees that tens of millions of literal human babies are dismembered maliciously, and you think that many of those babies are in Hell anyway.

No?

Nope, that isn’t what I think.