Is eternal suffering literal?

[Keiw1]

Lets see what the bible teaches on that matter-Literal or symbolic?
Deut 32:4-All of Gods ways are justice)= perfect justice as he taught= an eye for an eye--His justice scales are in perfect balance, lets apply those scales to eternal suffering.
On one side=70-100 years of an unrepented life-- A literal eternal suffering = Trillions x trillions x trillions etc of never ending years of punishment to suffer--See 0 balance in that scenario--Thus eternal suffering was symbolism. The true God set before all-LIFE or DEATH( Deut 30:19) both will be eternal. The true God is love, not a sadist who would condemn one to suffer eternally. Only blind guides teach it as literal.

The symbolism is-- As each new day dawns in Gods kingdom those not allowed in miss each day, miss each day of Gods love, it never ends. Likened to be an eternal suffering.

Do you believe the bible or blind guides?

 

[Derf]

Lets see what the bible teaches on that matter-Literal or symbolic?
Deut 32:4-All of Gods ways are justice)= perfect justice as he taught= an eye for an eye--His justice scales are in perfect balance, lets apply those scales to eternal suffering.
On one side=70-100 years of an unrepented life-- A literal eternal suffering = Trillions x trillions x trillions etc of never ending years of punishment to suffer--See 0 balance in that scenario--Thus eternal suffering was symbolism. The true God set before all-LIFE or DEATH( Deut 30:19) both will be eternal.

It doesn't seem like death is eternal, since all die, then all are resurrected, then all are judged. Judgment follows resurrection, which follows death, so death is not eternal.
Do you agree with that?

So, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and the wages of sin is death, and since all die, it seems like justice should be complete at death. Yet there is still a judgment after resurrection. Why? What is left to judge if death has already been meted out to all?

I would suggest that the resurrection is showing God's grace, bestowed upon all of Adam's race.

The true God is love,

True. And that "love" still condemns men to annihilation, in your view. Why is that love? It sounds horrible to me.

not a sadist who would condemn one to suffer eternally.

Are you saying that only a sadist would condemn one to suffer eternally? So, if it turns out you are wrong about the suffering being eternal, will you stand before God and tell Him that He is a sadist?

Only blind guides teach it as literal.

The symbolism is-- As each new day dawns in Gods kingdom those not allowed in miss each day, miss each day of Gods love, it never ends. Likened to be an eternal suffering.

An eternal suffering that they can't experience? that seems disconnected. Suffering is all about what one experiences.

 

[Keiw1]

It doesn't seem like death is eternal, since all die, then all are resurrected, then all are judged. Judgment follows resurrection, which follows death, so death is not eternal.
Do you agree with that?

So, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and the wages of sin is death, and since all die, it seems like justice should be complete at death. Yet there is still a judgment after resurrection. Why? What is left to judge if death has already been meted out to all?

I would suggest that the resurrection is showing God's grace, bestowed upon all of Adam's race.

True. And that "love" still condemns men to annihilation, in your view. Why is that love? It sounds horrible to me.

Are you saying that only a sadist would condemn one to suffer eternally? So, if it turns out you are wrong about the suffering being eternal, will you stand before God and tell Him that He is a sadist?

An eternal suffering that they can't experience? that seems disconnected. Suffering is all about what one experiences.

God has already judged sin= death, thus one cannot be retried for past sins once dead. At Romans 6:7 is clear--one is acquitted of all sin at death. Thus at the resurrection, God is so loving he gives those a 2nd chance to learn and apply his will. Under perfect conditions with no satan influences. Sadly many will fall again once satan is loosed for a little while to test the resurrected ones faith and they will be destroyed forever. That is what will be judged and why satan is loosed for a little while. Otherwise its really senseless to bring the wicked back to life just to judge them to death. The ones who remain faithful get their names written in Gods book of life. What a loving God to do that for sinners.
God swore an oath in front of all creation( Deut 30:19)-He set life or death in front of all. Action proves ones choice.

 

[Derf]

God has already judged sin= death, thus one cannot be retried for past sins once dead. At Romans 6:7 is clear--one is acquitted of all sin at death. Thus at the resurrection, God is so loving he gives those a 2nd chance to learn and apply his will. Under perfect conditions with no satan influences. Sadly many will fall again once satan is loosed for a little while to test the resurrected ones faith and they will be destroyed forever. That is what will be judged and why satan is loosed for a little while.

Why is two chances enough? Why not 3?

Otherwise its really senseless to bring the wicked back to life just to judge them to death.

But that's not what the scripture says. It says they are judged for 2nd death, not for the 1st. And a 2nd death, which is a different kind of thing than the 1st, requires a different kind of sin than the 1st, don't you think?

The ones who remain faithful get their names written in Gods book of life. What a loving God to do that for sinners.

For sinners? I thought you said sin was paid for by their death. What God seems to be doing is either destroying them forever in your view (annihilation) or tormenting them forever in the traditional view (eternal hell). Neither of those things sound like love, do they? And why is a 2nd chance needed?

God swore an oath in front of all creation( Deut 30:19)-He set life or death in front of all. Action proves ones choice.

But if death has already happened to those whom God swore in front of, then is the oath no longer valid. They all died. And all of their offspring has died or will die. And therefore to whom does God owe anything related to that oath?

 

[Keiw1]

Why is two chances enough? Why not 3?

But that's not what the scripture says. It says they are judged for 2nd death, not for the 1st. And a 2nd death, which is a different kind of thing than the 1st, requires a different kind of sin than the 1st, don't you think?

For sinners? I thought you said sin was paid for by their death. What God seems to be doing is either destroying them forever in your view (annihilation) or tormenting them forever in the traditional view (eternal hell). Neither of those things sound like love, do they? And why is a 2nd chance needed?

But if death has already happened to those whom God swore in front of, then is the oath no longer valid. They all died. And all of their offspring has died or will die. And therefore to whom does God owe anything related to that oath?

The wages sin pays is death= Gods judgement against sin. Its paid in full at death.
The second chance is in a world with no satan influences. Everything back to perfection. During the 1000 year reign of Christ. Gods kingdom rule in full control. But they will not be handed eternal life without their faith being tested like ours is now. Its why satan gets loosed for a little while to test the resurrected ones faith. It will be a different kind of sin, one like Adam did while perfect.
The second death is eternal. There is no tormenting of anyone. Blind guides teach that as literal.

 

[Derf]

The wages sin pays is death= Gods judgement against sin. Its paid in full at death.
The second chance is in a world with no satan influences. Everything back to perfection. During the 1000 year reign of Christ. Gods kingdom rule in full control. But they will not be handed eternal life without their faith being tested like ours is now. Its why satan gets loosed for a little while to test the resurrected ones faith.

The resurrected are made of incorruptible stuff, that can't die.
1 Corinthians 15:42 KJV — So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1 Corinthians 15:44 KJV — It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body...

1 Corinthians 15:53-54 KJV — For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Death can't be swallowed up in victory if death is still a possibility. Thus the need for a 2nd kind of death, one that must last forever, since the first kind is no longer available.

It will be a different kind of sin, one like Adam did while perfect.

Adam's sin brought death to the whole human race, but it wasn't any different kind of sin, just more intentional than some, perhaps. It was disobeying God in direct defiance of His command. So are murder, theft and adultery.

The second death is eternal. There is no tormenting of anyone. Blind guides teach that as literal.

There must be some kind of torment, or the bible wouldn't say "torment". like here:
Revelation 14:11 KJV — And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The same word is used of the rich man in Hades:
Luke 16:23 KJV — And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
He was actively in torment, being able to feel the flames.
Luke 16:24 KJV — And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

 

[Keiw1]

The resurrected are made of incorruptible stuff, that can't die.
1 Corinthians 15:42 KJV — So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1 Corinthians 15:44 KJV — It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body...

1 Corinthians 15:53-54 KJV — For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Death can't be swallowed up in victory if death is still a possibility. Thus the need for a 2nd kind of death, one that must last forever, since the first kind is no longer available.


Adam's sin brought death to the whole human race, but it wasn't any different kind of sin, just more intentional than some, perhaps. It was disobeying God in direct defiance of His command. So are murder, theft and adultery.

There must be some kind of torment, or the bible wouldn't say "torment". like here:
Revelation 14:11 KJV — And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The same word is used of the rich man in Hades:
Luke 16:23 KJV — And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
He was actively in torment, being able to feel the flames.
Luke 16:24 KJV — And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Death gets thrown into the lake of fire after satan is loosed and misleads some to be destroyed. The ones who stand faithful get their names written in Gods book of life. Then one has eternal life.

The torment is missing each day in Gods kingdom( eternal life)-- trading 70-100 years of a sinful existence and missing out on trillions x trillions x trillions of never ending years, never sick, never without, not aging like now--that is a torment in a sense. Its a very bad trade.

 

[Derf]

Death gets thrown into the lake of fire after satan is loosed and misleads some to be destroyed.

But death is thrown into the lake of fire prior to the penalty of those that were misled. So death (the 1st kind, where they would return to dust) is impossible, because it is entirely defeated. This seems to me to be where most Christians go wrong, because they think of man as immortal, at least in soul/spirit. But if the 1st death really means just returning to the dust ("corruption"), and that kind is defeated, then the other kind of death, 2nd death, acts on an incorruptible body, one that can't die, in the old sense, but can only remain in existence forever.

The ones who stand faithful get their names written in Gods book of life. Then one has eternal life.

The torment is missing each day in Gods kingdom( eternal life)-- trading 70-100 years of a sinful existence and missing out on trillions x trillions x trillions of never ending years, never sick, never without, not aging like now--that is a torment in a sense. Its a very bad trade.

That's an odd definition of torment. When one no longer exists, one won't be bothered by missing out on anything. In fact, it sounds a lot like "rest", where you don't have to be uncomfortable any more, yet the verse I quoted specifically says they have no rest:
Revelation 14:11 KJV — And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[Keiw1]

But death is thrown into the lake of fire prior to the penalty of those that were misled. So death (the 1st kind, where they would return to dust) is impossible, because it is entirely defeated. This seems to me to be where most Christians go wrong, because they think of man as immortal, at least in soul/spirit. But if the 1st death really means just returning to the dust ("corruption"), and that kind is defeated, then the other kind of death, 2nd death, acts on an incorruptible body, one that can't die, in the old sense, but can only remain in existence forever.

That's an odd definition of torment. When one no longer exists, one won't be bothered by missing out on anything. In fact, it sounds a lot like "rest", where you don't have to be uncomfortable any more, yet the verse I quoted specifically says they have no rest:
Revelation 14:11 KJV — And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Its impossible for death to be thrown in before Rev 20:10--death is tossed in at 20:14
Eternal suffering is symbolism not literal. God isn't a sadist who would make nothing little mortals suffer for eternity. I showed you the oath that the true God made at Deut 30:19--Life or death he set before all.

 

[Derf]

Its impossible for death to be thrown in before Rev 20:10--death is tossed in at 20:14
Eternal suffering is symbolism not literal.

You're just not convincing. By your statement, you admit that eternal suffering is biblical, and the reason you give for it being not literal is that you don't like it. But if God resurrects everyone to an eternally incorruptible body, what is He to do with the ones who refuse to obey Him?

God isn't a sadist who would make nothing little mortals suffer for eternity.

I don't see why that is any more sadistic than annihilating them.

I showed you the oath that the true God made at Deut 30:19--Life or death he set before all.

You didn't show me why that applies to everyone, nor how it applies to anyone after they have died and been resurrected.

 

[Keiw1]

You're just not convincing. By your statement, you admit that eternal suffering is biblical, and the reason you give for it being not literal is that you don't like it. But if God resurrects everyone to an eternally incorruptible body, what is He to do with the ones who refuse to obey Him?

I don't see why that is any more sadistic than annihilating them.

You didn't show me why that applies to everyone, nor how it applies to anyone after they have died and been resurrected.

Gods words are a 100% guarantee--He took an oath, he set before all-LIFE or DEATH.
Did you read the words at John 3:16= a very famous scripture-- For God loved the world so much that he( not we) gave his only begotten son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be DESTROYED(not given eternal life to suffer) but have everlasting life.

 

[Derf]

Gods words are a 100% guarantee--He took an oath, he set before all-LIFE or DEATH.

I'm not questioning God or His words. But He didn't set before all life and death in that passage, but before the Israelites who were about to enter Canaan by passing over the Jordan:
[Deu 30:18-19 KJV] 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, [and that] ye shall not prolong [your] days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Did you pass over Jordan with them? If not, then why do you think it applies to you?

Did you read the words at John 3:16= a very famous scripture-- For God loved the world so much that he( not we) gave his only begotten son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be DESTROYED(not given eternal life to suffer) but have everlasting life.

Here are some other verses using that word ("perish" in the KJV):
[Mat 8:25 KJV] And his disciples came to [him], and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.
[Luk 13:33 KJV] Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
[1Co 8:11 KJV] And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

None of those mean "annihilated", do they? Or if they do, surely it is not a permanent annihilation, right? since it includes 1. the Apostles, 2. faithful prophets of God, and 3. BROTHERS in Christ?

We today have a usage of the term "destroyed" that includes such things as "to be made poor" or "to be removed from the sphere of politics", etc. Cannot the biblical term also be used in such manner?

 

[Bladerunner]

The resurrected are made of incorruptible stuff, that can't die.
1 Corinthians 15:42 KJV — So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1 Corinthians 15:44 KJV — It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body...

1 Corinthians 15:53-54 KJV — For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Death can't be swallowed up in victory if death is still a possibility. Thus the need for a 2nd kind of death, one that must last forever, since the first kind is no longer available.


Adam's sin brought death to the whole human race, but it wasn't any different kind of sin, just more intentional than some, perhaps. It was disobeying God in direct defiance of His command. So are murder, theft and adultery.

There must be some kind of torment, or the bible wouldn't say "torment". like here:
Revelation 14:11 KJV — And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The same word is used of the rich man in Hades:
Luke 16:23 KJV — And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
He was actively in torment, being able to feel the flames.
Luke 16:24 KJV — And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

The biggest problem with the Hell that was at the time of Abraham. (Abraham's Bosom) was that the rich man could see, smell, feel plus all other senses of the human body. However, in the NT, Jesus speaks of a darkness a coming place for the sinner....From this it suggest one will be in torment but in darkness without anyone around

 

[Derf]

The biggest problem with the Hell that was at the time of Abraham. (Abraham's Bosom) was that the rich man could see, smell, feel plus all other senses of the human body. However, in the NT, Jesus speaks of a darkness a coming place for the sinner....From this it suggest one will be in torment but in darkness without anyone around

It could possibly be talking about different places. Or, the darkness might be symbolic of not having the Father and Jesus around, since they are the light of the New Jerusalem.

Or it might be showing that the parable wasn't supposed to be describing things exactly as they will be in the lake of fire.

 

[Keiw1]

I'm not questioning God or His words. But He didn't set before all life and death in that passage, but before the Israelites who were about to enter Canaan by passing over the Jordan:
[Deu 30:18-19 KJV] 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, [and that] ye shall not prolong [your] days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Did you pass over Jordan with them? If not, then why do you think it applies to you?


Here are some other verses using that word ("perish" in the KJV):
[Mat 8:25 KJV] And his disciples came to [him], and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.
[Luk 13:33 KJV] Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
[1Co 8:11 KJV] And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

None of those mean "annihilated", do they? Or if they do, surely it is not a permanent annihilation, right? since it includes 1. the Apostles, 2. faithful prophets of God, and 3. BROTHERS in Christ?

We today have a usage of the term "destroyed" that includes such things as "to be made poor" or "to be removed from the sphere of politics", etc. Cannot the biblical term also be used in such manner?

twisting things never works. Destruction is permanently done away with.

 

[Derf]

twisting things never works. Destruction is permanently done away with.

Here are some bible verses that show the opposite--that destruction doesn't mean utter destruction.
Exodus 10:7 KJV — And Pharaoh's servants said unto him, How long shall this man be a snare unto us? let the men go, that they may serve the LORD their God: knowest thou not yet that Egypt is destroyed?
The servants were still a part of Egypt, and Pharaoh was still on his throne. And you know that Egypt continued to exist after that time.

Deuteronomy 12:30 KJV — Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
How could it be possible that the Israelites could be snared by following (becoming disciples of) a people who no longer existed?

Joshua 10:39 KJV — And he took it, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining: as he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir, and to the king thereof; as he had done also to Libnah, and to her king.
Why is the word "utterly" needed, if "destroyed" always means what you say.

 

[Arthur Brain]

One thing that seems to be a constant with those who believe in literal, eternal suffering. It always happens to other people...

 

[Keiw1]

Here are some bible verses that show the opposite--that destruction doesn't mean utter destruction.
Exodus 10:7 KJV — And Pharaoh's servants said unto him, How long shall this man be a snare unto us? let the men go, that they may serve the LORD their God: knowest thou not yet that Egypt is destroyed?
The servants were still a part of Egypt, and Pharaoh was still on his throne. And you know that Egypt continued to exist after that time.

Deuteronomy 12:30 KJV — Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
How could it be possible that the Israelites could be snared by following (becoming disciples of) a people who no longer existed?

Joshua 10:39 KJV — And he took it, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining: as he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir, and to the king thereof; as he had done also to Libnah, and to her king.
Why is the word "utterly" needed, if "destroyed" always means what you say.

Lake of fire = the second death. There is no life in death. God throws death and the grave into the lake of fire to destroy them forever. All things thrown in there get destroyed forever.

 

[Derf]

One thing that seems to be a constant with those who believe in literal, eternal suffering. It always happens to other people...

Of course! Because those who take the threat seriously don't want it to happen to them. So they, through threat of eternal punishment, are eager to avoid such. You should, too, Brain. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

 

[Derf]

Lake of fire = the second death. There is no life in death. God throws death and the grave into the lake of fire to destroy them forever. All things thrown in there get destroyed forever.

Except now we have the immovable rock being hit by the unstoppable force. Their bodies are new and improved. They are incorruptible. If incorruptible, then the fires of hell can't annihilate them, but they still feel the pain.