Is eternal suffering literal?

[Derf]

The first death isn't permanent, the second death is. John 3:16 those not exercising faith in Jesus will be destroyed.

Which I've shown doesn't mean what you say it means. Repeating the same assertion's after they've been discredited means you've run out of material, and you're no closer to convincing anyone of your view. Go back and review the answers you've received and see if you need to revise your position. Otherwise, you're wasting everyone's time.

 

[Derf]

Sin (and its consequences) cannot be expunged.

Well, it can be, but only through the shedding of blood (loss of life). Once the sinner has lost his life, his sins are expunged/paid for--the wages of sin is death.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Sheol= Hades= the grave= Hades = hell. John 3:16 is clear-those not exercising faith in Jesus will be destroyed.

Their bodies will certainly be destroyed, yes.

It's an excellent synecdoche.

However, they cannot cease to exist, because the payment for their sin is too great, requiring their eternal destruction, because of the lack of Christ's payment applied to their account.

Such is the consequence of sin.

The wages of sin is death, not annihilation.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Well, it can be, but only through the shedding of blood (loss of life). Once the sinner has lost his life, his sins are expunged/paid for--the wages of sin is death.

Yes. But the consequence of permanently rejecting God is permanent death.

Rejecting God is itself a sin, hence permanently (something that will never cease, that is ongoing) rejecting God (ie, dying without placing trust in Christ) is a sin that requires a permanent ongoing punishment, one that cannot be applied to a being that no longer exists.

 

[Keiw1]

Which I've shown doesn't mean what you say it means. Repeating the same assertion's after they've been discredited means you've run out of material, and you're no closer to convincing anyone of your view. Go back and review the answers you've received and see if you need to revise your position. Otherwise, you're wasting everyone's time.

God will show all it does mean that.

 

[Keiw1]

Their bodies will certainly be destroyed, yes.

It's an excellent synecdoche.

However, they cannot cease to exist, because the payment for their sin is too great, requiring their eternal destruction, because of the lack of Christ's payment applied to their account.

Such is the consequence of sin.

The wages of sin is death, not annihilation.

All thought stops at death. God already judged sin-The wages of sin is death. There is no life in death.

 

[Derf]

God will show all it does mean that.

In other words, your words are more to be trusted than God's words. Why bother quoting scripture at all, then. Just write your own bible.

 

[JudgeRightly]

All thought stops at death.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead.

Yet God, who is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is the God of the living, not the God of the dead.

So clearly death does not mean "cessation of consciousness."

God already judged sin-The wages of sin is death. There is no life in death.

Defining a word by it's opposite is generally not how it works.

 

[Keiw1]

In other words, your words are more to be trusted than God's words. Why bother quoting scripture at all, then. Just write your own bible.

You can look in the mirror and say the same words.

 

[Keiw1]

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead.

Yet God, who is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is the God of the living, not the God of the dead.

So clearly death does not mean "cessation of consciousness."



Defining a word by it's opposite is generally not how it works.

God knows 100% they will be resurrected, That occurs at Rev 20= after the tribulation and Harmageddon, during Jesus' 1000 year reign. So in that sense he views them as living.

 

[JudgeRightly]

God knows 100% they will be resurrected, That occurs at Rev 20= after the tribulation and Harmageddon, during Jesus' 1000 year reign. So in that sense he views them as living.

Because you say so?

 

[Derf]

You can look in the mirror and say the same words.

There's a difference. I'm using scripture, rightly or wrongly, to support my assertion. You're rejecting what scripture says to support yours.

 

[Derf]

God knows 100% they will be resurrected, That occurs at Rev 20= after the tribulation and Harmageddon, during Jesus' 1000 year reign. So in that sense he views them as living.

Some at the beginning, some at the end of the 1000 years.

 

[Derf]

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead.

Yet God, who is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is the God of the living, not the God of the dead.

So clearly death does not mean "cessation of consciousness."



Defining a word by it's opposite is generally not how it works.

But Jesus was clear in His reference to "in the resurrection". Therefore He was referring to those men as being alive in resurrection, which had not happened yet.
Matthew 22:31-32 KJV — But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

 

[Bladerunner]

Hello. I believe scripture. There are verses used to talk about eternal suffering which I think are misread: Rev. 14:10-11. These are talking about humans who took the mark of the beast. It does not say they are thrown into the Lake of Fire. The LOF comes after the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth.

They are thrown in a place of torment, a realm, where they have no rest day or night. Verse 11 simply states "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever." Now, they may be suffering but scripture says it is the smoke of that realm that ascends forever. I think this describes the place many call hell or even hades.

We are told much later that hell/hades gives up the dead/lost in it and those not found in the book of life go into the Lake of Fire. This is known as the second death for humanity.

Now, what is death like in the LOF? I believe scripture at least says Satan will be tormented for ever and ever in it. So MAY be the beast and the false prophet which were the first to be thrown in when Christ returned.

However, I am not so sure whether the life of the living souls of humanity will remain inside or be consumed back into God who is life and the giver of life. If he giveth, he can taketh back. Here is my reason/theory/speculation.

I believe God created mankind's body out of the elements called ground. Same elements from which the earth was formed. God cursed the ground when Adam/Woman committed their sin. The process of death over time came unto mankind and the earth also began to wear out like an old garment. This was done obviously for a big reason.

God's first command to humanity was to multiply and reproduce. He was growing himself a family. Since birthing was a process over time so would death need to be so that multiplying and reproducing would continue. Now, I think God allows humanity to live until he is ready to end multiplying and reproducing. The way to accomplish this long suffering time is to have store houses for holding the living spirits of mankind. For them he has named some of his barns. 1. the bosom of Abraham, the place of heat and torment/hell, the place Christ goes to prepare for us, and finally the Lake of fire.

Satan and his take a different route, cast out/down and commanded to partake of the dust of the ground forever, but still with access to God, chained in 'the Pit/Abyss.' And finally the Lake of Fire.

Now, at approximately the same time Satan and hell's content are cast into the LOF the earth is made new again. That means there are no longer any cursed ELEMENT OF THE GROUND LEFT... all is made new.
.
I believe it is at this time that mankind looses its physical identity when the body of his soul is destroyed and that God, who is life and the giver of life, takes back that life into his own eternal infinite self from which it came. This may very well describe the SECOND DEATH for mankind.

This is why I don't think mankind suffers forever in the Lake of Fire. He is gone.

Now, for Satan and the beast and false prophet ... well, that's another topic.

you said:"This is why I don't think mankind suffers forever in the Lake of Fire. He is gone". yet the Bible tells us this is for an eternity...The Soul is immortal while the body is mortal. at the time of the second resurrection, those in Hell/Hades will be reunited with the bodies left on earth and judged in the White Throne Judgement. When they are thrown into the Lake of Fire, their bodies willl die for all time and the souls will reside in the lake of fire and Brimstone Forever.

 

[Bladerunner]

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead.

Yet God, who is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is the God of the living, not the God of the dead.

So clearly death does not mean "cessation of consciousness."



Defining a word by it's opposite is generally not how it works.

agreed... the soul is immortal while the body is not!

 

[Bladerunner]

Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew22:29-32&version=NKJV

It could possibly be talking about different places. Or, the darkness might be symbolic of not having the Father and Jesus around, since they are the light of the New Jerusalem.

Or it might be showing that the parable wasn't supposed to be describing things exactly as they will be in the lake of fire.

NO, Luke 16:19-31 is pretty specific...The reader knows where the word of GOD is speaking of and knows what to expect if they wind up in Hades after the first death.

 

[ttruscott]

Does the idea ofhell deny GOD's loving nature?

IF we were created as eternally self and other aware spirits and
IF we were all created with a free will and
IF there is an unforgivable sin, a sin that puts the person outside of all grace and
IF some of HIS creation chose to sin the unforgivable sin and
IF it is true that a little leaven / sin leavens / corrupts the whole lump / person / community, then
IF the only way to protect HIS Church and heavenly Family from these eternally evil people was to banish them from HIS heavenly reality,
THEN hell is an absolute necessity to keep the eternally evil ones from corrupting HIS heaven and the heavenly marriage.

 

[Derf]

NO, Luke 16:19-31 is pretty specific...The reader knows where the word of GOD is speaking of and knows what to expect if they wind up in Hades after the first death.

But how can one know anything in Hades/Sheol?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV — Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [sheol], whither thou goest.

 

[Derf]

agreed... the soul is immortal while the body is not!

Can you give us a scripture reference that says the soul is immortal?
Here's one that says the opposite:
Ezekiel 18:4 KJV — Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.