Because you don't believe the "old man" was destroyed.
Is death just another life?
- Thread starter Derf
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Except that I do in fact believe that when a man believes in Christ, his old man is crucified with Him, "that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin."
It doesn't mean that we no longer sin, but that we aren't slaves of sin and unable to do anything other than sin.
A man who has his jail cell door opened can choose to remain in the cell, but it doesn't mean he hasn't been freed.
Paul is talking about conduct, not a physical body.
He literally says so:
But you have not so learned Christ,if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness. - Ephesians 4:20-24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians4:20-24&version=NKJV
Derf
Well-known member
We're not, but this is why you have a hard time understanding what I'm saying--you are only reading the scriptures with your presuppositions, so you can't actually get truth from scripture.
Which you don't actually have. You have no body that is already dead, because you are still alive. If you believed scripture when it says that it's appointed unto man once to die, you would realize you can't die physically twice.
Symbolically, that's fine. Physically, that's nonsense, as shown many times to you.
But it you check it against the descriptions for that version (and others), you will see that the words were added by the translators to help with readability. The words aren't inspired and could be incorrect.
You weren't physically crucified with Christ. There were two thieves that were, but you weren't. As such, any quickening that has already happened to you was not effected on your physical body. And in order to have 2 physical, bodily deaths and two quickenings would require that you die twice, physically, which is not the norm for true believers.
I'm willing to admit I could be mistaken. You should consider it for yourself.
Which is NOT physical.
As far as I can tell, it only means "alive" physically.
He can't raise someone from the dead who isn't dead.
Not physically, anyway, which is what you have promoted. Even if we talk about some other kind of dying with Christ, if we didn't exist when He died and rose again, then we didn't actually die with Him and we weren't actually raised with Him. So these words are talking figuratively, or "propitiationally" as @way 2 go stated.
Only false when compared to your presuppositions. It fits well with scripture.
Misplaced faith is worthless, too. If you are believing that you have already died physically and have been raised physically, and that is your salvation, it shows itself to be worthless when you then die physically "again". What kind of eternal life is one where even after you've been raised from the dead physically, and are in your eternal, incorruptible, immortal body, you then die again physically? Of what use is an immortal body which dies? None at all, because it is contradictory...and anyone you witness to will see the hypocrisy and insanity of your words.
You live in a fantasy, and anyone you give such a gospel to will see it for what it is--false.
way 2 go
Well-known member
(Colossians 3:3)For you died, and your life has been hidden with Christ in God.
bible doesn't use imputed or proxy or positionally
propitiation
need someone like to expound
@PneumaPsucheSoma
no red-herring it's like your question
not trying to be difficult I don't see another word other than propitiation for death in Colossians 3:3
what kind of righteous are you ?
is the 'For you died ' just as important as righteousness from God's legal\justice requirement ?
Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit * the * kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor abusers, nor homosexuals, (I Corinthians 6:9 [MKJV]
Great !
Then you are saying that which is of God's seed can bring forth the fruit of the devil.
Don't you remember the parables about seed only being able to bring forth after itself?
Grapes from fig seeds?
It isn't possible.
A man whose prison was destroyed can't remain in his cell.
If the old man isn't put off, neither will his old conduct be put off.
We would still be in the "old man".
OK.
You left rebirth out of your equation.
The body quickened by the Holy Spirit is what is walking around now, and after the Spirit and not after the "flesh".
As I have refuted an equal number of times.
It didn't change the context, which verses 5 and 6 continues with.
"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
Made alive from sin after death and being "raised up together" with Jesus.
If we weren't killed and buried with Him how can we be made alive and raised with Him?
That contradicts scripture, especially Rom 6:3-6 and Gal 5:24.
My first death preceded my rebirth.
The impending death of the vessel is not "my" death.
It is just the vessel's ending.
No thanks.
Says you.
If we are raised with Christ to walk in newness of life, (Rom 6:4), we too must have been dead.
Then what dies with Christ at water baptism into Him and into His death and burial?
Faith moves mountains.
Time is not an obstacle to faith.
BTW, you should look up "propitiation" in the dictionary.
My salvation won't be assured until I find my name is in the book of life.
Just a vessel dies "again".
I don't see that happening.
The vessel isn't immortal.
It is just...a vessel.
The proof of false prophets, and doctrines, is their fruit.
Are you living without sin?
Sin is not of God, so answer carefully.
No, I'm not.
I'm saying that when a Christian sins, "it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwell; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. . . . but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members..."
Clearly, Paul didn't think what you are accusing me of saying, and I am in agreement with Paul.
Who's saying that the mind that serves the law of God will serve the law of sin? Not me!
Missing the point.
Supra.
Wrong.
Liar.
Here's a hint, Hoping...
Simply contradicting someone isn't what the word "refuting" means in the context of a debate forum. In the context of debating something, to refute something is to demonstrate (i.e. prove) that something is false. You've refuted nothing. Nothing whatsoever. You've barely done anything that could be construed as trying to refute a word anyone has said on this thread! You state your doctrine and then repeat yourself when someone actually does refute your doctrine by quoting scripture that openly contradicts your flagrantly irrational doctrine.
Really?
If Paul was still walking in the "flesh" when he wrote Romans, but writing about his past, (v5), then God's seed would indeed be bearing sinful fruit.
Which you just said you're not saying.
In fact, the previous chapter told us how to destroy the flesh/old man. (Rom 6:6)
Me either.
In fact Paul tells us we can be freed from the law of sin by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus in Romans 8:2.
Jesus even said no man can serve two masters. (Matt 6:24)
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I guess their refutation was not a refutation either.
It certainly wasn't enough to convince me that I have to return to the flesh that has been killed with Christ.
Yes, really.
He wasn't.
I think I see the problem here. You don't seem to know what "walking in X" means, in this context.
Walking in the flesh simply means you are following the desires of the flesh, such as lust, coveteousness, etc. It DOES NOT mean that one cannot do otherwise (if one is a Christian).
On the other hand, walking in the Spirit means you are doing that which is godly, loving one's neighbor, loving God, etc. It does not mean that one cannot do otherwise (if one is a Christian).
Paul STOPPED writing about his past in verse 6. "But now..."
What are you even talking about?
God's seed has nothing to do with this conversation.
Yes, Christians can bear sinful fruit, when they walk in the flesh, when they SHOULD be walking in the Spirit, so that they do not bear sinful fruit.
Get it?
Maybe if you were paying attention to what I was saying, and trying to understand it, rather than just assuming I'm wrong and you're right, you wouldn't be so confused.
No, it doesn't. It states that our old man was crucified with Christ, THAT the body of sin MIGHT be done away with..."
Meaning it hasn't been done away with yet. It will be done away with when we receive our new bodies at the Rapture, like Paul says.
Being freed from the law of sin is not the same as no longer sinning. It simply means that one can choose to walk in the flesh, or to walk in the spirit, "
Yes, but He never said that once one starts serving one, he will never serve the other ever again!
Note that Paul states that the two laws are warring in his body!
Matthew 6:24 is hyperbole. "Cannot" does not mean "completely incapable of doing". It's analogous to when Paul states that "all Israel will be saved". "All" does not mean "every single one". In fact, in that context, it just means "a significant portion". It's a common figure of speech that everyone uses all the time! (See what I did there?)
Derf
Well-known member
Why can't propitiation be by proxy? Isn't Christ's death applied to us imputationally? Didn't Christ die in our place? So we don't propitiate for ourselves...Christ does it for us.
Definition of propitiate
to gain or regain the favor or goodwill of : APPEASE
If all our works are as filthy rags, we CAN'T propitiate for ourselves--we rely on Christ to do it for us, which He did at the cross.
I appreciate the clarification and the tone of your question. I'm fine with the word "propitiation" modifying "death", but our death isn't sufficient for propitiating us to God, therefore it isn't our death...except by imputation or proxy. Or perhaps as a figure of speech for how we now interact with the world.
Not any kind in terms of gaining my salvation. For that, Christ is my righteousness. If you want to call it imputed or by proxy or something else, that works for me.
Probably. But let's go to another death passage:
Ephesians 2:1 KJV — And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
This one is different from the other one, because we are now alive in this one, right, compared to Col 3:3 where we are currently still dead.
In this, the righteousness is actualized, at least in our will, if not fully in our flesh. In general, Christians don't want to do these things (fornicate, abuse, worship idols, etc.), but not all of these things are completely gone in us, that is in our flesh. We WANT to follow God's commands to us. We don't always do so.
I am glad we agree that Paul was not walking in the "flesh" when he wrote Romans.
Why not write "flesh", as it is opposed to walking in the Spirit.
They won't do otherwise if they are Christians, as they have crucified the "flesh" with the affections and lust.
Everyone walking after the "flesh" is a non-Christian, not reborn of God's seed, and unrepentant.
Your description is correct, but I can't figure out why you think it is a part time kind of life.
You are thinking of walking in the "flesh" and also in the Spirit.
That is just not possible for those whose "flesh" has been destroyed.
Agreed, as from there he goes into a past-narrative, where he describes his former plight trying to live the Law, but failing.
If you read the entire sentence instead of replying to every three or four words, you might be able to understand it.
God's seed cannot produce men who walk after the "flesh".
That is blasphemy, saying God's seed will gender liars, murderers, and thieves.
If one is still walking in the flesh, it is because they don't believe the "flesh" can be destroyed at our "immersion" into Christ's death and burial.
Either that, or they just refuse to repent of sin.
Do you walk in the "flesh"?
If Yes, you are either unrepentant or haven't the faith to believe your old man was killed with Christ so you could walk in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh".
Or both.
So why on earth would anyone still walk in the "flesh"?
It has, as your version of the bible says, been done away with.
It will be too late by then.
Man had an entire life to crucify the flesh with the affections and lusts, but chose to live in sin instead.
The judgement of that man will be worse than horrible.
Sorry, you have gone too far over the edge for me to respond.
Any one still walking after the flesh is still under the Law, and doomed.
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways, James said.
Thanks be to God we can win every battle against temptation thrown our way, now that we walk in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh".
Can fig seeds bear any grapes?
No.
Neither can God's seed ever bring forth liars, thieves, or adulterers.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Huh. Yeah. Because it wasn't even like Adam's body was composed of living cells, just waiting for a human soul host or mind, there was no life in it yet at that moment. It was probably fully hydrated, ready to go, but there wasn't yet an energy gradient between the inside and outside of all his cells. God's Breath provided that.
We would say, that if we could now examine this body before God breathed into it, that it was a cadaver. But since the history of the body was that it never lived, then yes, it would be technically, not dead, but simply non-living.
Right, but your phone will "rise again" once you find the charger.
See below, where I distinguish between penance and liturgy as the two characteristic kinds of work or good works that Christians do. Also consider that the many inventories of examples of good works in the New Testament commonly include works that no one would be guilty of sin for not doing, not unless they like the villains in the Parable of the Good Samaritan, went out of their way to cross the road in order to not do them. Therefore many of these lists include obvious works of penance and not obligatory good work, demanded of all Christians (among these are avoiding the most serious forms of sin).
Right, I take this to mean, "You will be dead in the near future," as a figure of speech.
That's not it. I'm a Catholic and there are things that only Christians do and there are things that anybody can do, and penance is an only-Christian thing to do. Penance is voluntarily doing work to become more Christlike. It is not obligatory, which means you don't have to do penance to be saved and you can't lose your salvation for not doing penance.
The other kind of only-Christian thing to do is liturgy, which is obligatory. Liturgy is the sacraments, beginning with Baptism and perhaps ending with Anointing of the Sick, but in the vast middle is the Eucharist, basically aka the Mass. Obligatory means on pain of grave sin. Do this, or else, and the or else, is as severe as things can get in our faith, it means you're potentially excommunicated, depending on the status of your soul, iow do you really believe in Jesus? yes or no.
Because mortal sin, which is grave sin accompanied by dead faith (iow no penance), severs communion between you and the Church, you're no longer authorized to receive the Eucharist. The Church in mercy only requires you go to Communion once a year, during the Easter season, which means you must be in a state of full communion, which is a ritual state, and if you have broken communion through the commission of mortal sin then reconciliation is accomplished in Confession through asking for mercy (which is given when there is genuine desire to do penance).
The desire to do penance, which is voluntary good work to become more Christlike, is the defining feature of the true Christian, however strange his habits are wrt liturgy. For example there are very many true Christians who never participate in Christian liturgy (never go to Mass), and who don't avoid all grave sins. But they do all share a genuine desire to become more Christlike; they do all want to do penance.
Doing penance because of a guilty conscience constitutes the least common penances in the life of a Catholic. We just want to obey Jesus and be more like Him, because we believe in Him and adore Him.
I find all God's grace in His Church. This is the specific way He planned to and still does provide His grace, as it was in the beginning of the Church, is now, and ever shall be, world without end.
Discussing doctrine is impossible with people who willfully redefine the meaning of common words.
Penance:
noun
1. voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong.
There is also a verb form of the word but it's archaic and so isn't relevant to this topic. Given the actual definition of the term, penance is not only NOT an "only-Christian" thing to do, it is an anti-Christ thing to do. That is, unless you've also redefined or simply ignore, the meaning of "it is finished", which, of course, the Catholics do.Clete
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Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Another meaning, which makes it a different word from what you're talking about, is "popular piety." I'm using the Catholic word penance (one of them, since Penance is one of the names of the sacrament aka Confession and Reconciliation) because I dislike the other word which commonly means the same thing, "sanctification." Perhaps you'd prefer to substitute the word sanctification when you see me using penance. "Faith without sanctification is dead," iow.
We celebrate "it is finished" every Mass.
Derf
Well-known member
Right.
Be sure it is made to do so by a power source. In the mean time it isn't doing anything in some other place or existence.
Besides @Clete's definition for penance, I found this one:
2.a Christian sacrament in which a member of the Church confesses sins to a priest and is given absolution
It doesn't fit with yours, either. I'd like to think this is just a peculiar language disconnect, but I think I trust the normal definitions over yours. And placing all good works a Christian desires to do in this category is the type of bondage Jesus' death was supposed to free us from.
Hebrews 2:15 KJV — And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
If such a meaning is allowed in Genesis, why not also in Ephesians:
Ephesians 2:1 KJV — And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Christ, in mercy, doesn't have a replacement law, but a spirit of joyful obedience to Him. In fact, worship of such law-like rituals was what severed communication between Him and those Jews who refused to allow the new commandments of loving God and each other to take hold of their hearts.
Which doesn't fit any of the definitions of penance.
But the grace is to the church from Him, and from the church to you and me as participants...of His grace, not of a bunch of rituals.