Is death just another life?

[Gary K]

no , they just have to exist


Mat_11:24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”

How does a person "exist" without life?

Ecclesiastes 9:4 ¶For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

 

[way 2 go]

How does a person "exist" without life?

Eph_2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

 

[JudgeRightly]

I just quoted the scripture that applies. It said they would die. This is in contrast to what God did when He gave them life. If Adam started as dust, and God made him alive, then what would he be when he dies? Wouldn't he return to what he was before? Dust?

Only if man was ONLY DUST. But since man is more than the dust of the ground, when the Bible talks about man returning to dust, it's only talking about the physical portion. Which means you're left with explaining what happens to the other parts of man, the soul, and the spirit.

Man, when he dies physically, is separated from his physical body, and his soul/spirit either soars to heaven, or is dragged straight to hell. Our physical body is like an anchor in that respect, keeping us attached to this world. The moment that connection is severed, it's straight to glory, or straight to prison to await final judgement. (This is also why people who say they came back from the dead are kooks and frauds ("for it is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgement").)

Then their punishment was complete.

You think their punishment was complete, simply by God kicking them out of the garden and forcing them to work harder to survive in the now fallen world?

Sin requires a payment NO MAN CAN PAY. That includes Adam, and getting kicked out of Heaven is hardly an even payment. The VERY MOMENT Adam sinned, he needed a Savior.

ONLY GOD can pay that price, because only God's infinite worth can satisfy the infinite cost.

Why did they then have to die again?

Why did Christ have to die?

Derf, why did Christ say, three times, no less, "If there be any other way, let this cup pass from Me"?

It's because there was no other way to redeem mankind to Himself.

And the implication of that?

It means God can't just simply expunge man and his sin by destroying him. There HAS to be a payment made to satisfy the needs of justice.

That AND the fact that God made man to last forever, and thus He CANNOT destroy man, because man's soul is indestructible.

God cannot destroy what He made to be indestructible!

Is God unjust to require two penalties for one sin.

Physical death comes about as a natural event (but of course can be affected by our choices in life). It's a consequence of Adam's Fall.

SPIRITUAL death is the result of a choice to rebel against God, and the penalty (the wages, as Paul puts it) for sin is death.

No offense, but that question wasn't for you.

And I answered it anyways.

 

[marke]

But does the Bible ever teach that death is the cessation of existence? Even one time?

Not for humans, as far as I remember.

 

[Derf]

Not for humans, as far as I remember.

Then you have to wonder why God would threaten death for eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but never carry it out.

But Jesus talked about it.

 

[marke]

Then you have to wonder why God would threaten death for eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but never carry it out.

But Jesus talked about it.

You should not be stumbling over simple Bible truths that even elementary school kids can understand.

 

[Derf]

Only if man was ONLY DUST. But since man is more than the dust of the ground, when the Bible talks about man returning to dust, it's only talking about the physical portion. Which means you're left with explaining what happens to the other parts of man, the soul, and the spirit.

If man is tripartite, then without the three parts, you don't have a man. Thus, when man dies, there's no need to explain what happens to other parts--there are no other parts left.

Man, when he dies physically, is separated from his physical body, and his soul/spirit either soars to heaven, or is dragged straight to hell.

I'm sure it comforts you to repeat the mantra, but there are no passages that say either of those things.

(This is also why people who say they came back from the dead are kooks and frauds ("for it is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgement").)

Lazarus was hardly a kook or a fraud. But i agree the present day heavenly tourism movement is not to be trusted.

You think their punishment was complete, simply by God kicking them out of the garden and forcing them to work harder to survive in the now fallen world?

Sin requires a payment NO MAN CAN PAY. That includes Adam, and getting kicked out of Heaven is hardly an even payment. The VERY MOMENT Adam sinned, he needed a Savior.

Sin only requires an alternate payment IF the man is going to be saved.

Your view has the man still alive after his payment was already processed--with no need for Christ's death.

Why did Christ have to die?



It's because there was no other way to redeem mankind to Himself.

And the implication of that?

It means God can't just simply expunge man and his sin by destroying him. There HAS to be a payment made to satisfy the needs of justice.

Only if redemption is the goal. If God chose not to redeem mankind, then death/destruction of the man is sufficient payment for the man's sins.

That AND the fact that God made man to last forever, and thus He CANNOT destroy man, because man's soul is indestructible.

God cannot destroy what He made to be indestructible!

He obviously didn't make man indestructible, since He said He could destroy him. Matt 10:28.

Physical death comes about as a natural event (but of course can be affected by our choices in life). It's a consequence of Adam's Fall.

SPIRITUAL death is the result of a choice to rebel against God, and the penalty (the wages, as Paul puts it) for sin is death.

What about soul death? It sounds like you are agreeing with Satan, "you shall not surely die. There will always be some piece of you still alive."

The bible never says "the wages of sin is spiritual death." Can you see that, at least here, the doctrine goes beyond scripture?

And I answered it anyways.

And you were wrong. See Matt 10:28 again.

 

[Derf]

You should not be stumbling over simple Bible truths that even elementary school kids can understand.

You just lowered my respect for you about 25% with that fallacy.

 

[ttruscott]

Then you have to wonder why God would threaten death for eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but never carry it out.

Never?? Hardly...
Matt 13:27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28 “ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [a reference to verses 36-39]
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ [that is, bring judgement upon them?]
29 “ ‘NO!’ he answered, [postpone the judgement...] ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest.
It is the sinfulness of the elect sheep gone astray that postpones the judgement which will indeed happen when the last sinful elect fully repents!!!

Who is that guy, anyway???

 

[Derf]

Never?? Hardly...
Matt 13:27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28 “ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [a reference to verses 36-39]
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ [that is, bring judgement upon them?]
29 “ ‘NO!’ he answered, [postpone the judgement...] ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest.
It is the sinfulness of the elect sheep gone astray that postpones the judgement which will indeed happen when the last sinful elect fully repents!!!

Who is that guy, anyway???

Sorry unrelated. Please try again in another thread.

 

[marke]

Then you have to wonder why God would threaten death for eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but never carry it out.

But Jesus talked about it.

Adam and Eve did die spiritually the day they ate the fruit. Even Sunday School kids know that.

1 Timothy 5:6
But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

 

[Derf]

Adam and Eve did die spiritually the day they ate the fruit. Even Sunday School kids know that.

1 Timothy 5:6
But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

And my position is that such isn’t the case--Adam and Eve died physically IN the day they ate the fruit. The construction of the sentence, without additional modifiers on "day" indicate that it means, or at least can mean, an "age", or a period of time. Like here:
[Gen 2:4 KJV] These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

If God took more than a 24-hour day (according to your Sunday School teachers) to create the heavens and the earth, then Genesis is in conflict with itself and can't be trusted. We know that God took 6 days of morning and evenings to create the heavens and earth, according to Gen 1, so the interpretation of "in the day" can mean something more than a 24 hour day. Therefore, Adam could have died physically "in the day" that he ate of the wrong tree, and therefore that passage shouldn't be used to determine forever after that "death" doesn't really mean "death", but something else.


1 Tim 5:6 is translated by the New Living Translation as exactly what you said, "[1Ti 5:6 NLT] But the widow who lives only for pleasure is spiritually dead even while she lives." But that's the only translation that does that of the ones on Blue Letter Bible, which makes you wonder why, doesn't it? If that's the correct translation, why don't others do the same? I would suggest to you that it is adding to scripture, and the other translators were rightly hesitant to add to scripture. The reason it is adding to scripture is that it is from a doctrine that is biasing the translators of the NLT. While that doctrine might be right or it might be wrong, the addition of the words to "clarify" the text means that it is little better than commentary, rather than what the text is intending to say, and therefore it shows that in that one verse, at least, the NLT is not trustworthy.

 

[marke]

And my position is that such isn’t the case--Adam and Eve died physically IN the day they ate the fruit. The construction of the sentence, without additional modifiers on "day" indicate that it means, or at least can mean, an "age", or a period of time. Like here:
[Gen 2:4 KJV] These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

If God took more than a 24-hour day (according to your Sunday School teachers) to create the heavens and the earth, then Genesis is in conflict with itself and can't be trusted. We know that God took 6 days of morning and evenings to create the heavens and earth, according to Gen 1, so the interpretation of "in the day" can mean something more than a 24 hour day. Therefore, Adam could have died physically "in the day" that he ate of the wrong tree, and therefore that passage shouldn't be used to determine forever after that "death" doesn't really mean "death", but something else.


1 Tim 5:6 is translated by the New Living Translation as exactly what you said, "[1Ti 5:6 NLT] But the widow who lives only for pleasure is spiritually dead even while she lives." But that's the only translation that does that of the ones on Blue Letter Bible, which makes you wonder why, doesn't it? If that's the correct translation, why don't others do the same? I would suggest to you that it is adding to scripture, and the other translators were rightly hesitant to add to scripture. The reason it is adding to scripture is that it is from a doctrine that is biasing the translators of the NLT. While that doctrine might be right or it might be wrong, the addition of the words to "clarify" the text means that it is little better than commentary, rather than what the text is intending to say, and therefore it shows that in that one verse, at least, the NLT is not trustworthy.

You need to get wisdom from God to properly interpret scripture. Webster's dictionary and Bible commentaries will not serve as acceptable substitutes.

 

[Derf]

You need to get wisdom from God to properly interpret scripture. Webster's dictionary and Bible commentaries will not serve as acceptable substitutes.

That's funny, because that's exactly what I was suggesting you were doing--taking Sunday School teachers' and poor translations as if they are God's word.

However bad they might be as "substitutes", they are still good resources--even Sunday School teachers. Just like if you didn't know what "resources" meant in that last sentence, going to Webster's would be better than going to the bible. Daniel Webster quoted quite a lot from the bible in his dictionary of 1828. Here's his entry on "death":

Spoiler

DEATH, noun deth.

1. That state of a being, animal or vegetable, but more particularly of an animal, in which there is a total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions, when the organs have not only ceased to act, but have lost the susceptibility of renewed action. Thus the cessation of respiration and circulation in an animal may not be death for during hybernation some animals become entirely torpid, and some animals and vegetables may be subjected to a fixed state by frost, but being capable of revived activity, they are not dead.

2. The state of the dead; as the gates of death Job 38:17.

3. The manner of dying.

Thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas. Ezekiel 28:8.

Let me die the death of the righteous. Numbers 23:10.

4. The image of mortality represented by a skeleton; as a death's head.

5. Murder; as a man of death

6. Cause of death

O thou man of God, there is death in the pot. 2 Kings 4:40.

We say, he caught his death

7. Destroyer or agent of death; as, he will be the death of his poor father.

8. In poetry, the means or instrument of death; as an arrow is called the feathered death; a ball, a leaden death

DEATHs invisible come winged with fire.

9. In theology, perpetual separation from God, and eternal torments; called the second death Revelation 2:10.

10. Separation or alienation of the soul from God; a being under the dominion of sin, and destitute of grace or divine life; called spiritual death

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. 1 John 3:1. Luke I.

Civil death is the separation of a man from civil society, or from the enjoyment of civil rights; as by banishment, abjuration of the realm, entering into a monastery, etc.

Webster (the real guy, not the company that currently puts out dictionaries) included the definition you and @JudgeRightly are using in his definitions. But you should notice how far down this man of God put the definition. It was not the primary definition, nor is it even the first biblical definition (#9, "second death", comes before #10, "separation of the soul from God..."). This is appropriate, in my opinion, because the normal usage of the word "death" at the time Webster compiled his dictionary was what he has in his first definition: cessation of all vital functions with no possibility of renewed function.

All I'm trying to say in this thread is that Webster's first definition, the one most people would think of now and then, and, I would propose, even back in Adam's day (notice how I threw that in there?), should not be dismissed so quickly when talking about the wages of sin. Oh, I forgot to mention in Jesus' day: [Jhn 11:14 KJV] Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Dictionaries tell us (or try to tell us) how language is used, but they do so from the usage the authors observe in culture, verbal and literature. The bible is literature that spans 6000 years of events, and one of those events is the introduction of language to Adam. The very first words, as far as we know, that God spoke to Adam included the word "die", and Adam must have known what God meant, because God gave him that language, and then spoke to him with it. So I would suggest this is way too important to just assume that all children's Sunday School teachers are getting it right. (I would also suggest that it is important that we don't just send our children to any available Sunday School teacher, because some of them are teaching our children lies: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/lutheran-church-offers-drag-queen-prayer-time-to-children)

 

[way 2 go]

And my position is that such isn’t the case--Adam and Eve died physically IN the day they ate the fruit. The construction of the sentence, without additional modifiers on "day" indicate that it means, or at least can mean, an "age", or a period of time. Like here:

"can mean" only with modifiers , otherwise day is default day 24hr period.

Gen_3:5 for God knows that in the day you eat of it, even your eyes shall be opened,
Gen 3:7 Then the eyes of both were opened,

you want to modify "day" to suit YOU ,not because of the text

[Gen 2:4 KJV] These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

and the modifier is ? "generations"

If God took more than a 24-hour day (according to your Sunday School teachers) to create the heavens and the earth, then Genesis is in conflict with itself and can't be trusted

so you imply conflict if more than 24 hrs , proof of that ?

We know that God took 6 days of morning and evenings to create the heavens and earth,

so more than 24 hrs , so now Genesis can't be trusted

according to Gen 1, so the interpretation of "in the day" can mean something more than a 24 hour day.

your " therefore " does not follow

 

[Derf]

"can mean" only with modifiers , otherwise day is default day 24hr period.

"In the day" is a prepositional phrase. It IS a modifier...of something else. Within the phrase is a preposition and an object of the preposition. The Object of the preposition is a noun, which has a modifier: "the". Also within the prepositional phrase is a dependent clause, "that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens". It depends on, and modifies, "day". The dependent clause gives no clue to the length of time "day" means"

Gen_3:5 for God knows that in the day you eat of it, even your eyes shall be opened,
Gen 3:7 Then the eyes of both were opened,

So you WOULD take Satan's word (vs 5) over God's! Thanks for that confirmation. This is the problem with promoting the idea that Adam and Eve only "spiritually" died--it accepts Satan's view, but rejects God's.

and the modifier is ? "generations"

"In the day" is a prepositional phrase. It IS a modifier...of something else.

Spoiler

Prepositional phrase definition:

1. a modifying phrase consisting of a preposition and its object.

. The modification is adverbial--it answers "when" something happened, but not "how long it took". As an answer to "when", it uses "day" as something different than 24 hours, establishing, in the same chapter as the other use of "in the day" that "in the day" does not have to mean "in a 24 hour period.

A "when" modification, being adverbial, doesn't ever modify a noun, but can modify a verb, an adjective, or another adverb. "In the day" tells "when" the creation took place.

so you imply conflict if more than 24 hrs , proof of that ?
so more than 24 hrs , so now Genesis can't be trusted

The conflict is all yours. Genesis can't be trusted if "in the day" can only mean 24 hours, because it uses "day" to mean something that wasn't a 24 hour day. But I've already said "in the day" can mean something besides 24 hours. You seem to agree with me, based on your "modifier" comment, so I don't understand why this is an issue for you--we both agree that Genesis can be trusted, and we both agree that "in the day" can mean more than 24 hours.

your " therefore " does not follow

In the hypothetical that you and I both disagree with. Can we move on now?

 

[way 2 go]

The dependent clause gives no clue to the length of time "day" means"

so day means = 1 rotation of the earth unless otherwise stipulated

So you WOULD take Satan's word (vs 5) over God's! Thanks for that confirmation. This is the problem with promoting the idea that Adam and Eve only "spiritually" died--it accepts Satan's view, but rejects God's.

God's word
Gen_3:5 for God knows that in the day you eat of it, even your eyes shall be opened,
Gen 3:7 Then the eyes of both were opened,

so day means = 1 rotation of the earth

strange tho you believe they didn't die when God said they would , pot meet kettle
Gen 3:4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

their separation from God was that day
Gen 3:9 But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?”

which is the condition of the world
Eph_2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

The conflict is all yours. Genesis can't be trusted if "in the day" can only mean 24 hours, because it uses "day" to mean something that wasn't a 24 hour day. But I've already said "in the day" can mean something besides 24 hours. You seem to agree with me, based on your "modifier" comment, so I don't understand why this is an issue for you--we both agree that Genesis can be trusted, and we both agree that "in the day" can mean more than 24 hours.

In the hypothetical that you and I both disagree with. Can we move on now?

how long would it take them to eat of the tree
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

you want us to believe it took years to eat

no you don't,

you want us to believe something the text does not indicate

 

[Derf]

so day means = 1 rotation of the earth unless otherwise stipulated

God's word
Gen_3:5 for God knows that in the day you eat of it, even your eyes shall be opened,
Gen 3:7 Then the eyes of both were opened,

so day means = 1 rotation of the earth

strange tho you believe they didn't die when God said they would , pot meet kettle
Gen 3:4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

their separation from God was that day
Gen 3:9 But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?”

which is the condition of the world
Eph_2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins


how long would it take them to eat of the tree
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

you want us to believe it took years to eat

no you don't,

you want us to believe something the text does not indicate

You want to believe I said something I didn’t say, that’s up to you, but it’s not worth the time to me. Thanks anyway.

 

[way 2 go]

You want to believe I said something I didn’t say, that’s up to you, but it’s not worth the time to me. Thanks anyway.

you said :

Except for the one that lasted forty years:

Hebrews 3:8-9 (NKJV) 8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, 9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years.


Notice it uses the same form “in the day”

I said :
#137

how do you know it lasted forty years ?


that does not apply here


day =one rotation of the earth

Adam & Eve died the day they ate from the tree knowledge of good and evil

Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Eph_2:1

so here we are:
how many days did it take them to eat of the tree?
when were their eyes opened ?
Gen 3:7 Then the eyes of both were opened,
when were they separated from God?
Gen 3:9 But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?”

answer to all is "that day"

except you want us to believe they didn't die that day like God said they would

 

[Derf]

you said :




I said :
#137

how do you know it lasted forty years ?


that does not apply here


day =one rotation of the earth

Adam & Eve died the day they ate from the tree knowledge of good and evil

Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Eph_2:1

so here we are:
how many days did it take them to eat of the tree?
when were their eyes opened ?
Gen 3:7 Then the eyes of both were opened,
when were they separated from God?
Gen 3:9 But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?”

answer to all is "that day"

except you want us to believe they didn't die that day like God said they would

We could go back and forth all day on this, but I don’t see the point. The verse I cited from Hebrews says “in the day” was forty days. The verse I cited from Genesis was obviously not a single day, according to the previous chapter. Just because something happened within the same 24 hours, doesn’t mean the other thing was talking about a 24 hour day. The wording God gave allows for the time period to be greater than 24 hours. It surely doesn’t have to be, but just as surely it can be, by the same words used earlier in the chapter—as you’ve acknowledged. Why do you still argue against what you’ve already said was possible? That’s self contradictory—which means your logic has failed you. But if you don’t want to see your failure in logic, that’s up to you.

Until you stop arguing against yourself, there’s not much point in me arguing with you.