Is death just another life?

Derf

Well-known member
What I still cannot grasp is why you believe this!

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Thus, we see then that the spirit of man is distinct both from his body and his soul.
There were two parts to my comment that you were responding to:
What I'm suggesting is that our spirits are not a distinct part of us that survives our physical death.​
You addressed the "distinct part of us" part, but not the "that survives our physical death" part.

Nothing of the above would require the rejection of any of my doctrine regarding the nature of the spirit or the soul, either one. Nor would it interfere with the belief that death is a separation of one's spirit from either one's body or from God (or both).

So my question to you remains the same. Just what is it about the idea that death is a separation of one's spirit from one's body and / or from God (i.e. the Father) that makes you not like the idea? It seems like there must be a logical consequence of that belief that you see as problematic. If you could articulate what that is, I'd be very interested to read it.
I'm glad you've been persistent with this question. I don't know if I have the full understanding of the impact of believing one view over the other, but I've at least hinted at the problem in other posts (maybe not responding to you, however).

Let's say for a moment that God meant my view of death when He told Adam that he would surely die. And let's say for a moment that Satan meant your view of death when he told Adam he would NOT surely die. Adam believed Satan more than he believed God, and it was counted as a deception.

In my understanding, your view is more likely to be Satan's view than mine, since it is a different definition for "death" than is directly apparent in the text.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Let's say for a moment that God meant my view of death when He told Adam that he would surely die. And let's say for a moment that Satan meant your view of death when he told Adam he would NOT surely die. Adam believed Satan more than he believed God, and it was counted as a deception.

In my understanding, your view is more likely to be Satan's view than mine, since it is a different definition for "death" than is directly apparent in the text.
The problem for you here is two fold.

First of all your definition is not more directly apparent in the text than is mine. On the contrary, I've established the biblical veracity of my position more than once already.
Second, Adam DID NOT die according to your definition of death until several centuries later, at the earliest and even that is assuming that Adam ever entered the unconscious dormant state that your definition of death requires. Thus, if your defintion of death is correct then Satan was right when he told Adam that he wouldn't die! On the other hand, Adam definitely DID die according to my (i.e. the biblical) definition of death and he did so that very day, just as God said he would, when he was not only separated from God but expelled from the Garden of Eden.

Clete
 

Derf

Well-known member
The problem for you here is two fold.

First of all your definition is not more directly apparent in the text than is mine. On the contrary, I've established the biblical veracity of my position more than once already.
Second, Adam DID NOT die according to your definition of death until several centuries later, at the earliest and even that is assuming that Adam ever entered the unconscious dormant state that your definition of death requires. Thus, if your defintion of death is correct then Satan was right when he told Adam that he wouldn't die! On the other hand, Adam definitely DID die according to my (i.e. the biblical) definition of death and he did so that very day, just as God said he would, when he was not only separated from God but expelled from the Garden of Eden.

Clete
What you’ve pointed out here is not two evidences, but only a single piece of evidence, because your definition is derived from the fact Adam didn’t die in that 24 hour period.

As I’ve pointed out in other posts, the non-24 hour definition of day is used earlier in the same chapter as God’s warning about eating of the tree. In fact, if proximity were the best way to establish context, my view would easily win.
Genesis 2:4 (NKJV) This [is] the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

But you didn’t deal with the concern I brought up. Do you agree that the issue of God’s word versus Satan’s makes this at least a potentially important topic?
 

Derf

Well-known member
2Cor 5:8 (KJV)
(5:8) We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Is that one not obvious enough?
How many doctrines are obvious enough to only need a single verse of support?
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
What you’ve pointed out here is not two evidences, but only a single piece of evidence, because your definition is derived from the fact Adam didn’t die in that 24 hour period.
No, its not!
Adam did die in that 24 hour period!

You're the one who's saying he didn't die. In fact, by your definition of death, Adam didn't die at all until some 930 years later.

As I’ve pointed out in other posts, the non-24 hour definition of day is used earlier in the same chapter as God’s warning about eating of the tree.
No it isn't. A day is a day unless the context demands otherwise.

In fact, if proximity were the best way to establish context, my view would easily win.
Genesis 2:4 (NKJV) This [is] the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Saying it doesn't make it so.

But you didn’t deal with the concern I brought up. Do you agree that the issue of God’s word versus Satan’s makes this at least a potentially important topic?
I don't deny that it's potentially an important topic but Genesis doesn't help you at all.

Adam died the day he at that fruit! The entire bible - and I mean THE ENTIRE BIBLE - is predicated on that single fact. The Law is nothing but a continuation of the ministry of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. There are two things in the bible that had a ministry of death, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Law. "The letter (i.e. the law) kills but the Spirit (capital S) gives life." That's the whole entire bible in one sentence. It has always been about making a choice between the law and God and just as Adam died when he ate of the Tree, so the Law kills us...

Romans 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.​

And it isn't a metephorical death nor is it delayed! It is real and it is immediate and it would be final if not for Christ hanging on that other tree at Calvary (which is no mere coincidence).

Clete
 
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Clete

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Would you like to name a few?
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Exodus 20:13 “You shall not murder.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

That's just three but just a little effort would produce dozens of such single sentence doctrines.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Exodus 20:13 “You shall not murder.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

That's just three but just a little effort would produce dozens of such single sentence doctrines.
Then you should be getting baptized for your dead ancestors.
 

Clete

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Silver Subscriber
Then you should be getting baptized for your dead ancestors.
What in the world are you talking about?

Just because there are several doctrines that don't need more than a single sentence to establish, doesn't mean that any single sentence you pick at random establishes any doctrine you care to dream up.

Clete
 

Derf

Well-known member
What in the world are you talking about?

Just because there are several doctrines that don't need more than a single sentence to establish, doesn't mean that any single sentence you pick at random establishes any doctrine you care to dream up.

Clete
I didn't establish the criteria.
[2Co 13:1 KJV] This [is] the third [time] I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Of course, Paul didn't just make that up, the principle came from other places (or "mouths") in scripture.
 

Derf

Well-known member
No, its not!
Adam did die in that 24 hour period!

You're the one who's saying he didn't die. In fact, by your definition of death, Adam didn't die at all until some 930 years later.
No, I didn't say he didn't die. I said he did die, and in that day. But just like Gen 2:4, the day is an era, or a timeframe longer than a day. That's what the context gives you.

And I don't have to redefine "death" or "day".
No it isn't. A day is a day unless the context demands otherwise.
And as I showed, there are two ways that context shows it isn't a 24-hour day. One is in Gen 2:4. The other is [Gen 5:5 KJV] And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. This is the first time there is any mention that Adam actually died. And there's no reason to believe that this is in opposition to [Gen 2:17 KJV] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
You disagree with Gen 2:4? That's pretty bold.

I don't deny that it's potentially an important topic but Genesis doesn't help you at all.

Adam died the day he at that fruit! The entire bible - and I mean THE ENTIRE BIBLE - is predicated on that single fact
No, not "died the day", but "died IN the day" he ate that fruit.

Do you have some other passage that even talks about whether it was the actual 24 hour day? If not, then the predication is yours, not the bible's.

How about a verse that says "Adam died the day", as you put it?

How about a verse that says "Adam died the day" in some other phraseology?

How about any verse with any form of "die" and "Adam" that suggests how long it took Adam to die? You may include "spiritual death" in you search, if you want. I could only find one:
[Gen 5:5 KJV] And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

So context is undoubtedly on my side--I might even say THE ENTIRE BIBLE.

But here's something you should consider. If your faith is based on your understanding of THE ENTIRE BIBLE, and the entire bible doesn't have any sentence that says Adam died in some other way before he died physically, and you think the entire Bible is predicated on that fact that Adam died within 24 hours of eating that fruit--you are heading toward a conflict of faith, Brother. Hold onto truth more than you hold onto predications.

Romans 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
And it isn't a metephorical death nor is it delayed! It is real and it is immediate and it would be final if not for Christ hanging on that other tree at Calvary (which is no mere coincidence).
So you're saying that Paul died the day he heard the commandment? I don't see the word "day" in that verse. And to make that scenario fit Adam, since it wasn't metaphorical, now you're saying that Adam died the day God commanded him not to eat the fruit? That's pretty odd.

But let's look a little further on in Romans 7:
[Rom 7:13 KJV] Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Paul says that sin works death by that which is good, not as a singular action at a point in time, but as something that happens over a period of time. "Working" is a present participle, indicating an incomplete action, something still in progress. So your passage is actually supporting my position that the death was not effected immediately, but over time.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
As I’ve pointed out in other posts, the non-24 hour definition of day is used earlier in the same chapter as God’s warning about eating of the tree.
eating doesn't take years

In fact, if proximity were the best way to establish context, my view would easily win.
if it didn't say "day that you eat" , you might have something

this is your version
Gen 2:17 but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For if you eat of it you shall surely die.


Genesis 2:4
just a gigantic flaw in your theory
creating took days eating didn't
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
I don't think Adam died that day, but he did come under God's judgment of death.
the verse says
Gen 2:17 but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

how do you get around "the day that you eat" ?
 

Derf

Well-known member
the verse says
Gen 2:17 but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

how do you get around "the day that you eat" ?
Why do you leave out “in”?
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
the verse says
Gen 2:17 but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

how do you get around "the day that you eat" ?
That's when he received his death sentence. He didn't die physically, and he didn't die spiritually, just like we don't die spiritually....else how can we respond to the Gospel message?

Luke 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
 
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