Is Calvinism Wrong?

[glorydaz]

Also AMR in the Strongs 4100 , the definition they give the disclaimer you also removed . It states ," pisteuo means " NOT " just to believe .

Are you deliberately deceiving yourself and the people here ?

I did find this, which as I understand it, means exactly what you're claiming.

[ A-1,Verb,G4100, pisteuo ]
to believe," also "to be persuaded of," and hence, "to place confidence in, to trust," signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon, not mere credence. It is most frequent in the writings of the Apostle John, especially the Gospel. He does not use the noun (See below). For the Lord's first use of the verb, See John 1:50. Of the writers of the Gospels, Matthew uses the verb ten times, Mark ten, Luke nine, John ninety-nine. In Acts 5:14 the present participle of the verb is translated "believers." See COMMIT, INTRUST, TRUST.

https://studybible.info/vines/Belief, Believe, Believers​

 

[genuineoriginal]

Every word I've posted had come straight out of the New Strongs expanded edition and the Vines expository dictionary , unabridged edition . No need to trust Google , i have them both in front of me .

I guess I don't have to ask you guys how you did in school.

I got straight A's.
I also scored very high on the ASVAB for reading comprehension.

I've given you the editions I referenced

The New Strongs is also where you will! Find Akoe , " hearing " in Rom. 10:17 reference ( compare to a courtroom hearing .)

In other words, you are basing your entire theology on a few words that are ONLY found in the New Strongs expanded edition and no other version of Strongs and a few words that are ONLY found in the unabridged edition of Vines and no other version of Vines?

Do you realize how stupid that sounds?

So the three of you think I'm making up 3 definitions , not just 2 .

It doesn't matter whether you are making it up or not.
If the words are ONLY found in special editions of reference works, it would be stupid to rely upon those words when trying to understand the text.

making an argument from obscurity or rarity . . . is not the way to approach things.

[MENTION=17791]Faither[/MENTION] thinks making a doctrine from obscurity or rarity is the way to approach theology.

 

[beloved57]

Salvation is a gift from God for EVERYONE that believes, Romans 5:15, Romans 5:16, Romans 5:17, Romans 5:18.

Don't you believe sinners Christ died for go unredeemed and lost anyway?

 

[glorydaz]

The word believe has more than one meaning, as well. There is a strictly head knowledge, and there is a heart knowledge. To believe is to trust that something is true.

Also AMR in the Strongs 4100 , the definition they give the disclaimer you also removed . It states ," pisteuo means " NOT " just to believe .

Are you deliberately deceiving yourself and the people here ?

I post this to show that I agreed with you on this point early on. It was your dismissal of others' understanding the same thing that I was hoping you'd acknowledge.

It may seem like nit picking to you, but you would do well to acknowledge when people do agree.

 

[genuineoriginal]

We are saved by grace alone (Ephesians 1:7), through faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), in Christ alone (John 14:6; Acts 4:11-12), as revealed in Christian scripture alone (2 Timothy 3:16–17), to the glory of God alone (Revelation 4:11).

What does the Bible say about faith alone?

Spoiler

James 2:17 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.​

 

[john w]

Meh, keep speaking. You show your true character.

Confirmed, again, with his/her "You show your true character," as Calvinists determine who the alleged "elect to salvation" ones are, by what they "show,"as others'/their lifestyles tell them if they are saved, or not, one of the "elect." Calvinism is just "warmed over" Catholicism, Mormonism, i.e., "works based" "salvation."


Get saved, perverter of the gospel of Christ, with your "those that are saved are those that display/show a certain lifestyle."


Wolf.

Meh,

This is not "Captain Kangaroo," or "Romper Room," wolfie.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Just copied the exact definition out of the Strongs and Vines . I did this so it would be a indefensible , but I didn't think " Christians " would resort to deception and playing dumb . Take a good look at yourselves .

You copied obscure definitions out of special editions of Strong's and Vine's that are not supported by any other edition of those works.
That is indefensible (you can't defend your actions).
You have resorted to deception and you are now playing dumb.
Don't think for an instance that Christians are going to fall for that.

 

[MennoSota]

Cnfirmed, with his/her "You show your true character," as Calvinists determine who the alleged "elect to salvation" ones are, by what they "show,"as others'/their lifestyles tell them if they are saved, or not, one of the "elect." Calvinism is just "warmed over" Catholicism, Mormonism, i.e., "works based" "salvation."


Get saved, perverter of the gospel of Christ, with your "those that are saved are those that display/show a certain "lifestyle."


Wolf.


This is not "Captain Kangaroo," or "Romper Room," wolfie.

Do you believe your comments here are coming from the Holy Spirit?
Ephesians 4:29 - Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment that it will give grace to those who hear.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Why would I discuss something as important as God's Word you you or anyone who refuses to acknowledge or accept the true definitions given by expert authors ?

Obscure definitions found only in special editions of reference works and not in any other editions of those reference words are never the "true definitions."

 

[john w]

Do you believe your comments here are coming from the Holy Spirit?
Ephesians 4:29 - Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment that it will give grace to those who hear.

Confirmed, again, with his/her "Do you believe your comments here are coming from the Holy Spirit?," as Calvinists determine who the alleged "elect to salvation" ones are, by what they say, according to, of course, their "holier than thou" judgment,as others'/their lifestyles tell them if they are saved, or not, one of the "elect." Calvinism is just "warmed over" Catholicism, Mormonism, i.e., "works based" "salvation."

MennoSota: I am a rat, but I'm not as dirty as my other fellow rats, as my comments do not always come from the Holy Spirit, but I have more comments from the Holy Spirit, than my fellow rats, as I'm better than them, in my lifestyle, what I display, my character,...........................................so I must be saved!!!

The apostle Paul: Grievous wolves...child of the devil....pervert the gospel of Christ..............................let him be accursed...................................


You: Do you believe your comments here are coming from the Holy Spirit, Paul?!!!! Stop it, Paul!!!!!!! You show your true character, Paul!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!LOL, such a Godly spirit you display, Paul!!!!!!Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!


Deceiver.

 

[Faither]

James was not an expert author of the New Testament? If a so-called "expert" is can be easily shown to be in error, that "expert" is to be discarded. My expert trumps your expert. The scriptures are inspired, "Vines" is not.

If you haven't yet fulfilled pisteuo , the word Paul , Matthew , Mark , Luke , John , and James , used to communicate true NT Faith 248 times , they and their words are not yours to claim yet .

Those authors used the word pisteuo , the corresponding verb to the word pistis ( Faith ) and pisteuo according to the Strongs means " NOT , just to believe ."

The Vines " pisteuo means a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender ."

That is what they were communicating 248 times in the NT Greek texts. The English language could not communicate that specific message , due to not having a corresponding verb to the noun Faith in its language as the Greek does .

The mistranslated words believe , believer , and believing are corresponding verbs to the noun " belief ," not the noun Faith .

 

[Faither]

I provided links, you have not.
I have provided the full text, you have not.

You have obviously taken a minority definition/wording from whatever source you took them from and built your entire dogma on your misunderstanding of those minority definitions/wordings.

Your teachings have been proven false.


I am sorry that you are so unable to comprehend what you have been reading that you can't accept anything except your own misunderstanding.

Do you want me to surrender your life , and live a life inspired by such surrender to Christ for you also . It's not hard to find if you want to know the answer .

 

[Faither]

Rosenwriter , can't help but wonder why you haven't jumped on the band wagon with the others that claim I'm making all this up myself . And that the Strongs doesn't say " pisteuo means NOT just to believe " . That the Strongs doesn't say , akoe is Compare to a courtroom hearing ." And that the Vines doesn't define pisteuo as " a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender ."

You know my research is true , even if you don't agree with those experts . But by not saying anything , you have aligned yourself with the devievers . Pretty sure we'd agree on that one .

 

[genuineoriginal]

Do you want me to surrender your life , and live a life inspired by such surrender to Christ for you also . It's not hard to find if you want to know the answer .

No, I want you to stop blinding yourself with false definitions and learn to see the truth.
Your blindness is not helping anyone.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Then why did you give the Strongs definition 4100 , and make it look as if you got it from the Vines unabridged ?

I expect this kind of thing from others here AMR , but i " thought " although wrong in your understanding of Faith and faithing , held yourself to a higher standard .

Please remedy this by giving the Vines definition I said was in it . " A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender ."

Huh?

I provided a link to Vines for the words in question:
https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/ved/b/belief-believe-believers.html

How did I make it appear to come from the unabridged version? I only gave a link to that version with a comment that it need not be appealed to given that it is apparently an obscure one-of example.

Here is the same source, Vines, on "faith":
https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/ved/f/faith.html

Note from the link immediately above (formatted below for better reading):

The main elements in "faith" in its relation to the invisible God, as distinct from "faith" in man, are especially brought out in the use of this noun and the corresponding verb, pisteuo; they are
(1) a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation or truth, e.g.,​

2 Thessalonians 2:11,12 ;
(2) a personal surrender to Him, John 1:12 ;
(3) a conduct inspired by such surrender, 2 Corinthians 5:7 .

Prominence is given to one or other of these elements according to the context. ​

The phrase you are using—a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender—does not appear as you have rendered it, rather as stated above, the prominence of (1), (2), or (3) over the other is a function of context.

Again if a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender appears verbatim in Vines unabridged versions as you have written it, the later versions, as shown above, take better care to dissect the phrase.

You cannot resist these revisions that came at least ten years after the 1985 unabridged version by stubbornly denying the publishers their right to improve upon their content.

Of course, you are perfectly free to argue substantively that the publisher's later "improvements" went in the wrong direction, but that is not what you have been doing in this thread. Instead, you have made a solitary example from a one-of reference your locus classicus. It is best not to create an entire doctrine using this technique.

AMR

 

[Faither]

No, I want you to stop blinding yourself with false definitions and learn to see the truth.
Your blindness is not helping anyone.

And I want you to know what true NT Faith and faithing are , so when you and your household stand before God , you'll have no excuses , one way or the other .

 

[john w]

Rosenwriter , can't help but wonder why you haven't jumped on the band wagon with the others that claim I'm making all this up myself . And that the Strongs doesn't say " pisteuo means NOT just to believe " . That the Strongs doesn't say , akoe is Compare to a courtroom hearing ." And that the Vines doesn't define pisteuo as " a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender ."

You know my research is true , even if you don't agree with those experts . But by not saying anything , you have aligned yourself with the devievers . Pretty sure we'd agree on that one .

you have aligned yourself with the devievers

And you are going to teach us a bit about languages, Pops?


Take your seat.

 

[grit]

What does the Bible say about faith alone?

Spoiler

James 2:17 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.​

Which Bible? I'm honestly not meaning to be pedantic. I've noticed many using the text of the NKJV (which is site specific), I've largely used the text of the ESV, and others are engaging some disputation over various original language manuscript words and references. I'm hoping we can at least be clear in agreement on modern English equivalents. If so, then I'd also hope we're in agreement in both accepting the full veracity of the texts in use and appraising them with guidance from the Spirit of God systematically, contextually, and with all best practices of interpretation and illumination.

So, the verse you quote is in complete agreement with these verses I linked and now quote:

Ephesians 2:8-9
"For ^zby grace you have been saved ^athrough faith. And this is ^bnot your own doing; ^cit is the gift of God, ^dnot a result of works, ^eso that no one may boast."

z Eph 2:5
a 1 Pet 1:5; Rom. 4:16
b 2 Cor. 3:5
c Jn 4:10; Heb. 6:4
d 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5; Rom. 3:20, 28
e 1 Cor. 1:29; Judg. 7:2

Specific to the OP, "Is Calvinism Wrong?", I'd also post that it prompts further clarity - that's the way of many such Knightly queries, and yes, this very topic has been vigorously engaged througout TOL's history and Christendom.

I don't think any child of God having read Calvin's writings would categorically and with sincere forthrightness dismiss them all as erroneous. If they would, then they'd deny the Scriptures themselves. Otherwise, John Calvin would be the first to assent and even champion that he was a human being frought with sin and all manner of "wrong". In fact, a conerstone of his theology was the blazing contrast of God's absolute holiness and our need of God's grace.

As summary however, I'm in agreement that Calvin's writings and theological legacy speaks to profound Biblicism and the Reform principle honouring and reformationally elevating the primacy of God's Holy Scripture as the sole infallible rule of faith and practice. It was a foundational doctrinal principle of the Protestant Reformation held by many of the Reformers including Calvin, over and against Roman Catholic abuses at that time. That anyone would belittle Calvin's honour of Holy Script belies the great reliance Calvin gave to Scripture above the dictates of men or the Church, and reliance upon the Holy Spirit in the life of each individual Christian above any Papal authority or denominational dictate.

 

[Rosenritter]

Do you want me to surrender your life , and live a life inspired by such surrender to Christ for you also . It's not hard to find if you want to know the answer .

You need to make up your mind as to whether you are trying to preach faith and belief, or whether you are about arguing against evidence that the word "believe" has the same range of meaning as the Greek word that you prefer. One is admirable, the other is less than that.

 

[Faither]

Huh?

I provided a link to Vines for the words in question:
https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/ved/b/belief-believe-believers.html

How did I make it appear to come from the unabridged version? I only gave a link to that version with a comment that it need not be appealed to given that it is apparently an obscure one-of example.

Here is the same source on "faith":
https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/ved/f/faith.html

Note:
The main elements in "faith" in its relation to the invisible God, as distinct from "faith" in man, are especially brought out in the use of this noun and the corresponding verb, pisteuo; they are
(1) a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation or truth, e.g., 2 Thessalonians 2:11,12 ;
(2) a personal surrender to Him, John 1:12 ;
(3) a conduct inspired by such surrender, 2 Corinthians 5:7 .

Prominence is given to one or other of these elements according to the context.

The phrase you are using—a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender—does not appear as you have rendered it, rather as stated above the prominence of (2) or (3) one over the other is a function of context.

AMR

Where have I spoke about context ? Your the first to even acknowledge what I was presenting Is accually in there .

Now could you clear up the Strongs for them also , where it begins the definition of pisteuo , 4100 it states " pisteuo means not just to believe " .
And 189 akoe , ( compare to a courtroom hearing )
I appreciate your honesty concerning the definitions .