Good point.
The justification by/of Christ is available to all men, but men have their part to play.
To refuse to do our part consigns us to the lake of fire.
Is believing/faith a work ?
- Thread starter beloved57
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The justification by/of Christ is available to all men, but men have their part to play.
To refuse to do our part consigns us to the lake of fire.
Again it is obvious to see that you are a heretic. Faith is not a work! From Gotquestions.org.
Our salvation depends solely upon Jesus Christ. He is our substitute, taking sin’s penalty (2 Corinthians 5:21); He is our Savior from sin (John 1:29); He is the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). The work necessary to provide salvation was fully accomplished by Jesus Himself, who lived a perfect life, took God’s judgment for sin, and rose again from the dead (Hebrews 10:12).
The Bible is quite clear that our own works do not help merit salvation. We are saved “not because of righteous things we had done” (Titus 3:5). “Not by works” (Ephesians 2:9). “There is no one righteous, not even one” (Romans 3:10). This means that offering sacrifices, keeping the commandments, going to church, being baptized, and other good deeds are incapable of saving anyone. No matter how “good” we are, we can never measure up to God’s standard of holiness (Romans 3:23; Matthew 19:17; Isaiah 64:6).
The Bible is just as clear that salvation is conditional; God does not save everyone. The one condition for salvation is faith in Jesus Christ. Over one hundred times in the New Testament, faith (or belief) is declared to be the sole condition for salvation (e.g., John 1:12; Acts 16:31).
One day, some people asked Jesus what they could do to please God: “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus immediately points them to faith: “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent” (John 6:28-29). So, the question is about God’s requirements (plural), and Jesus’ answer is that God’s requirement (singular) is that you believe in Him.
Grace is God’s giving us something we cannot earn or deserve. According to Romans 11:6, “works” of any kind destroys grace—the idea is that a worker earns payment, while the recipient of grace simply receives it, unearned. Since salvation is all of grace, it cannot be earned. Faith, therefore, is a non-work. Faith cannot truly be considered a “work,” or else it would destroy grace. (See also Romans 4—Abraham’s salvation was dependent on faith in God, as opposed to any work he performed.)
Suppose someone anonymously sent you a check for $1,000,000. The money is yours if you want it, but you still must endorse the check. In no way can signing your name be considered earning the million dollars—the endorsement is a non-work. You can never boast about becoming a millionaire through sheer effort or your own business savvy. No, the million dollars was simply a gift, and signing your name was the only way to receive it. Similarly, exercising faith is the only way to receive the generous gift of God, and faith cannot be considered a work worthy of the gift.
True faith cannot be considered a work because true faith involves a cessation of our works in the flesh. True faith has as its object Jesus and His work on our behalf (Matthew 11:28-29; Hebrews 4:10).
To take this a step further, true faith cannot be considered a work because even faith is a gift from God, not something we produce on our own. “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8). “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him” (John 6:44). Praise the Lord for His power to save and for His grace to make salvation a reality!
7djengo7
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You need to learn how to properly tag me when mentioning me in your posts, @beloved57. I can understand why you want to avoid so doing, but by your failure to properly tag my name, you are preventing me from receiving notification that you are talking about me by name. Thus, I may or may not even realize you have said something to or about me, and, if I don't realize it, then how am I supposed to have an opportunity to rejoin against your heretical falsehoods and your misrepresentations of me? Basically, you end up talking about me behind my back, and perhaps that is your intent. But that is a cowardly and weaselly way to behave in a public forum.
I had said to you:
Here, you brazenly lie:
On the contrary, you did, indeed, say that people are justified BEFORE FAITH. Here you are saying it:
I could not care less how many postings you might have in which you state that you believe in justification by faith; obviously you do not believe in jbf, so, if you state that you do believe in jbf, you're stating falsehood.
beloved57
Well-known member
Both faith and repentance are our works when we make them conditions that we perform in order to get God to save us, but instead, both faith and repentance should be understood to be Christ achieved blessings of the covenant, His Gifts given to them He shed His Blood for.
This understanding takes them out of the realm of being works salvation, and constitutes them works that follow salvation Eph 2:9-10
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
In other words, both faith and repentance are not the causes of Salvation, but the fruit of Salvation !
This understanding takes them out of the realm of being works salvation, and constitutes them works that follow salvation Eph 2:9-10
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
In other words, both faith and repentance are not the causes of Salvation, but the fruit of Salvation !
7djengo7
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Here, again, you're simply reasserting your heretical, contra-Biblical falsehood that faith is a work.
You quote Paul:
By your telling us that faith is a work, you are making Paul to say "Not of [faith], lest any man should boast."
If faith is a work, and salvation is not of works, then salvation is not of faith. What is the matter with you? This is so plain and easy to get right, you have no excuse for continuing in your heretical error.
Faith is not a work.
Salvation is of faith, not of works.
No one here is saying that "WE make faith and repentance a condition in order to get God to save us."
GOD is the one who made the condition for Him to save someone the requirement of faith/repentance.
Not man.
Faith isn't a work anyways.
You make Christ out to be unjust by saying this.
Paul contrasts faith with works, which means that faith is not a work. He does so in the very next passage you quote.
Faith/repentance does not follow salvation.
Otherwise you have Christ saving someone so that they repent, which is backwards.
Supra.
No one said they were the causes of salvation, only a condition required by God for Him TO save someone.
On the same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the sea.And great multitudes were gathered together to Him, so that He got into a boat and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: “Behold, a sower went out to sow.And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them.Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth.But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them.But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: ‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.’But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.“Therefore hear the parable of the sower:When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.” - Matthew 13:1-23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew13:1-23&version=NKJV
Remember, the sower is God, spreading his message, the seeds.
This parable makes NO SENSE AT ALL under Calvinism, but makes perfect sense if men are able to respond, positively or negatively, to the gospel. Yes, faith and repentance are the fruit of the gospel, the same way that the plant that grows on fertile soil is the fruit of the sower, sowing his seeds.
beloved57
Well-known member
Man making a freewill decision to so call accept Christ, resulting in his or her salvation, thats works, however God choosing a man or woman who has been chosen by God, resulting in their Salvation is Grace. Rom 11:5-6
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7djengo7
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You've not accepted Christ? That makes you a Christ-rejector.
No, it's not, B57. "For by grace are you saved THROUGH FAITH . . . Not of works!"
1) Your grammar is terrible.
2) There's nothing "so called" about it. God offers the GIFT of salvation to all. Man has to ACCEPT that gift in order to receive it.
Do you not even read what your saying? "God choosing someone who has been chosen by God"?
No, grace is unmerited favor. It's when someone is given something that is undeserved.
When God gave His Son as a payment for sin on the cross, He became able to give anyone who put their faith in Him (His requirement, not our work) the free gift of salvation.
This has absolutely nothing to do with what you're saying. Paul is talking about the Jews who believed and partook of the New Covenant before the rest of Israel was cut off for their unbelief.
The works Paul refers to are the works of the Law of Moses.
Circumcision, dietary rules, tithing, Sabbath keeping, feast keeping: none of which will enable salvation.
beloved57
Well-known member
Paul is speaking about any conditions whatsover.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Right Divider
Body part
Faith is not a "condition", it is a response.
7djengo7
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That's false and utterly ridiculous, since sinning (among other things) is a condition of salvation from sin, and Paul's obviously not speaking about sin. One's being saved is conditioned upon his having sinned/being a sinner. Is being a sinner a gift from God? Is sinning a gift from God?
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beloved57
Well-known member
I never said faith is a condition !
No he wasn't.
The works of the Law were all he ever wrote against.
Especially circumcision...for salvation.
Why did he go to Jerusalem for the council in Acts 15?
He went because some Jews told folks they could not be saved unless they got circumcised and followed the Law.
Not because they heard, believed, repented of sin, got baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and tried to endure faithfully till the end.
All things your evil doctrine would eliminate if it were true.
Your doctrine deprives men of salvation.
beloved57
Well-known member
Also, the word for works here in Eph 2:9 has no qualifications as you are making here, so its works of any kind. I have shared before that the greek word for works here is ergon:
- an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
an act:—deed, doing, labour, work. So the word includes deeds or actions. For example if you say God saved you because you accepted Christ, friend that's an action, therefore a work ! If you contribute salvation to any action of yours, you are basing it on your works, and have reason to boast, to glory in your action !
The BIBLE says that faith/believing is a condition to being saved:
Ephesians 2:8-9
Romans 10:9-17
Just like circumcision was a condition for an Israelite/Jew to be in covenant relationship with God, so to is faith a condition set by God for God to save a man.
Faith isn't a work, according to Paul. As @Right Divider said, faith is a RESPONSE to what GOD has done.
It is sure a good thing then that Paul made it clear with six different verses that the works he wrote against were the works of the Law.
Rom 9:32..."Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law..."
Gal 2:16..."Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
Also, Gal 3:2, 5, and 10.
Your false doctrine is paralyzing.
I'll also point out that Paul added "...even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ" in Gal 2:16.
Believed so that we might be justified.
An action we must do for a certain result.
Your false doctrine is a lie.