Theology Club: If It Be Possible, Let This Cup Pass From Me

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

Let us look first at what you said here:

The elect are chosen because they believe:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).
​

So it is not like God chose the elect and then gave them a so-called gift of faith so that they might believe. They were chosen because they believe.

Mark 13:20 - "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days. [NASB]

God chose the elect.

Romans 8:33 - Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; [NASB]

God is the one who chooses. Man's work is not necessary. We are saved (salvation) by God's grace through faith, and that faith is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God.

Faith comes from God in the sense that He sends His ministers to preach the gospel and faith comes by hearing the gospel which comes in the power of the Holy Spirit. Those who do not resist the Holy Spirit will believe.

You're drifting away from scripture here because your theology is not fully supported by scripture. The above paragraph is from your fertile immagination, not from God. Maybe my interpretation of Calvinism is slightly different than you're accustomed to.

Salvation is not attained through works and I can agree with the rest.

I agree with you here 100%. Salvation is not attained through works.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

They indeed can since the gospel comes in the power of the Holy Spirit.

The hearing of the gospel is the ordinary means by which the spiritually dead are quickened by the efficacious grace of God via the Holy Spirit.

And why did you fail to address the verses which I cited that disprove the idea of Calvinism that life does not precede life?

Are you actually reading my responses?

"Once so regenerated the chosen of God will believe and be "in Christ", possessing the life of which the verses you have twisted actually teach, for it is in Him that we live and breathe (Acts 17:28)."

AMR

 

[Jerry Shugart]

God chose the elect.

Yes, and you just ignored the reason why they were chosen:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

God is the one who chooses. Man's work is not necessary. We are saved (salvation) by God's grace through faith, and that faith is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God.

It is "salvation" that is the gift of God, not "faith."

All men have the ability to believe. We can see in the following passage that even those who are perishing and believe not could have seen the light of the gospel if their minds were not blinded to it:

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Are you actually reading my responses?

Yes, and you never answered my points about the following two passages from the Bible:

Calvinism teaches that life precedes faith and it is that life which gives a person the ability to believe the gospel. However, the Apostle John makes it plain that "life" comes as a result of believing and nor prior to believing:

"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

We can see that same truth here:

" And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col.2:13).​

No one can be made TOGETHER with Christ while they remain defiled in their sins and no one has their sins forgiven until they believe:

"All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name" (Acts 10:43).​

The following verse shows our position in Christ when we are made alive together with us:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

That life which we are made alive "together" with Him is described as "eternal life." John Calvin says the following about 1 John 5:11:

"But the Apostle, that he might keep us together in Christ, again repeats that life is found in him; as though he had said, that no other way of obtaining life has been appointed for us by God the Father. And the Apostle, indeed, briefly includes here three things: that we are all given up to death until God in his gratuitous favor restores us to life; for he plainly declares that life is a gift from God: and hence also it follows that we are destitute of it, and that it cannot be acquired by merits; secondly, he teaches us that this life is conferred on us by the gospel, because there the goodness and the paternal love of God is made known to us; lastly, he says that we cannot otherwise become partakers of this life than by believing in Christ" (John Calvin, Commentary on 1 John 5:11).​

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

Yes, and you just ignored the reason why they were chosen:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).
​

It is "salvation" that is the gift of God, not "faith."

You cannot separate salvation from faith. You are completely ignoring (Ephesians 2:8-10 NASB). Sorry.

All men have the ability to believe. We can see in the following passage that even those who are perishing and believe not could have seen the light of the gospel if their minds were not blinded to it:

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).​

​

Men cannot believe on their own. So you make faith a work when the bible says otherwise. Once again I refer you to Ephesians 2:8-10. Have you not read Ephesians? That's rhetorical because I know you have. But you dismiss it by slight of hand. I have no problem with the scriptures you're quoting but you have a big problem with Ephesians 2:8-10.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You cannot separate salvation from faith. You are completely ignoring (Ephesians 2:8-10 NASB). Sorry.

Why?

They are two separate and distinct things despite the fact that believing brings salvation.

Men cannot believe on their own. So you make faith a work when the bible says otherwise.

First of all, I never said that men can believe on their own. In order to believe they must first hear the gospel (Ro.13-15).

Secondly, you must think that the Holy Spirit is impotent because the gospel comes in the power of the Holy Spirit (1 Thess1:5).

Your false ideas are based on the Calvinistic teaching that life precedes faith and it is that life which enables one to believe. But I have already shown that life comes as a result of believing and not prior to believing:

"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

Once again I refer you to Ephesians 2:8-10. Have you not read Ephesians? That's rhetorical because I know you have. But you dismiss it by slight of hand. I have no problem with the scriptures you're quoting but you have a big problem with Ephesians 2:8-10.

According to the Calvinist view that so-called gift of faith must come before life. But I have shown that life comes as a result of believing and not prior to believing.

And you have not even attempted to address the verses which I quoted which demonstrate that life comes as a result of faith.

So please address my remarks about both John 20:31 and Colossians 2:13.

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

Why?

They are two separate and distinct things despite the fact that believing brings salvation.

I've had Internet access issue today. That last response I wrote was quite lengthy, but I lost my Internet connection as it was being sent.

I disagree with the statement salvation and faith are two different things. First of all, Ephesians 2:8-10, presents the gospel message in total, but concisely.

God's order then is this:

<DIR><DIR>Faith—Salvation—Good Works—Reward

</DIR></DIR>Faith leads to salvation. Salvation results in good works. Good works will be rewarded by Him. Where does our salvation come from? It comes from God Himself through grace. We are saved (salvation) by grace (from God) through faith, and that faith not from ourselves (not by works), it is an unmerited gift from God. In other words, our faith is by God's grace. Our salvation is by God's grace. And our good works are by God's grace. The Believer's Bible Commentary explains the relationship much better than I can.

2:8 The next three verses present as clear a statement of the simple plan of salvation as we can find in the Bible.</B>

It all originates with the grace of God: He takes the initiative in providing it. Salvation is given to those who are utterly unworthy of it, on the basis of the Person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ.
It is given as a present possession. Those who are saved can know it. Writing to the Ephesians, Paul said, You have been saved. He knew it, and they knew it.

The way we receive the gift of eternal life is through faith. Faith means that man takes his place as a lost, guilty sinner, and receives the Lord Jesus as his only hope of salvation. True saving faith is the commitment of a person to a Person.

Any idea that man can earn or deserve salvation is forever exploded by the words, and that not of yourselves. Dead people can do nothing, and sinners deserve nothing but punishment.
It is the gift of God. A gift, of course, is a free and unconditional present. That is the only basis on which God offers salvation. The gift of God is salvation by grace and through faith. It is offered to all people everywhere. [from the Believer's Bible Commentary]
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I'll get to the rest of your post as time and Internet connectivity allows. Unless we can get to a place of agreement here, I see endless arguments in our future.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I disagree with the statement salvation and faith are two different things.

How can you say that since you yourself recognize that they are two different thins--one leads to another:

Faith leads to salvation. Salvation results in good works.

Youcontinue to make little or no sense so I cannot see how this discussion can possibly bear any fruit.

You refuse to deal with the verses which demonstrate that it is faith which brings life, and not, as the Calvinists teach, that life precedes life.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Dead men have no faith, faith is a spiritual quality. God makes us ALIVE before He gives us faith.

 

[intojoy]

Dead men have no faith, faith is a spiritual quality. God makes us ALIVE before He gives us faith.

Not quite so fast.
We become alive thru faith not before faith but because none can come to the Son unless the Father draws them there is an effectual calling of grace that goes beyond the general call of grace that went out to all the world, you and I heard that call, believed and became alive spiritually. That's not quite the same thing as saying we were saved before faith as the strict and hyper calvinist's teach. It is harmonious to what Jerry believes in that we exercise our will to believe. It is harmonious to what those scriptures teach about our limited free will being unable to come to the Son because we actually do the believing but it's not because we are regenerated spiritually before faith but rather we by God's omnipotent grace have been enabled to believe.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Not quite so fast.
We become alive thru faith not before faith but because none can come to the Son unless the Father draws them...

But are not all men drawn to Him:

" And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (Jn.12:32).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Dead men have no faith, faith is a spiritual quality. God makes us ALIVE before He gives us faith.

Then answer this verse which demonstrates that life comes as a result of faith:

"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

 

[intojoy]

But are not all men drawn to Him:

" And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (Jn.12:32).​

Yes. But there is a general draw and an effectual draw.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes. But there is a general draw and an effectual draw.

There is no such thing as an "effectual" draw. If you think that there is please quote verses which speak of it.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Then answer this verse which demonstrates that life comes as a result of faith:

"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

Well it is no different to the Romans verse "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God" The faith is in the word, nay in the One who spake it. Just as He said "let there be light and there was light" so He comes to us in the gospel [watching over it] and commands us to live. I was saved not through the spoken word but by the written word and I remember VIVIDLY how the word entered my soul and I came ALIVE......then was I saved.

I do believe that this is the way of it whether people are concious of it or not.

But He begins the good work in us.....seems to me SO important to get this right for it is those people mostly who believe they first came to God who are those who believe they may fall away. If God did the work first to last then we have absolute confidence...unshakable faith.

 

[intojoy]

There is no such thing as an "effectual" draw. If you think that there is please quote verses which speak of it.

No man can come to the Son

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

How can you say that since you yourself recognize that they are two different thins--one leads to another.

All connected by God's grace. You can deny that if you want, but you'd be denying the God's word.

You continue to make little or no sense so I cannot see how this discussion can possibly bear any fruit.

I thought I was being quite clear. I'm not using anything outside the bible, nor am I taking any scripture out of context.

You refuse to deal with the verses which demonstrate that it is faith which brings life, and not, as the Calvinists teach, that life precedes life.

You keep on claiming to know what Calvinists teach but you show no evidence of that claim. I explained to you that I believe in sola scriptura and you have not shown me ANY verses to support your claims against Calvinists. You have not shown me anywhere that Calvinists believe life precedes life. What does that even mean? You evidently want to claim faith as a work you're responsible for, instead of by God's grace and mercy. If that's your position, I guess we are at an impasse.

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

Well it is no different to the Romans verse "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God" The faith is in the word, nay in the One who spake it. Just as He said "let there be light and there was light" so He comes to us in the gospel [watching over it] and commands us to live. I was saved not through the spoken word but by the written word and I remember VIVIDLY how the word entered my soul and I came ALIVE......then was I saved.

I do believe that this is the way of it whether people are concious of it or not.

But He begins the good work in us.....seems to me SO important to get this right for it is those people mostly who believe they first came to God who are those who believe they may fall away. If God did the work first to last then we have absolute confidence...unshakable faith.

Holy Spirit inspired post. :thumb:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No man can come to the Son

So what do you mean by "coming to the Son"?

There is no such thing as an "effectual" draw. If you think that there is please quote verses which speak of it.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

All connected by God's grace. You can deny that if you want, but you'd be denying the God's word.

I never said that they are not connected. I said that faith and salvation are not the same thing.

You keep on claiming to know what Calvinists teach but you show no evidence of that claim. I explained to you that I believe in sola scriptura and you have not shown me ANY verses to support your claims against Calvinists. You have not shown me anywhere that Calvinists believe life precedes life. What does that even mean? You evidently want to claim faith as a work you're responsible for, instead of by God's grace and mercy. If that's your position, I guess we are at an impasse.

I meant to say that the Calvinists teach that life precedes faith--that regeneration precedes faith. But the following verse teaches that life comes as a result of faith:

"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​