Theology Club: If It Be Possible, Let This Cup Pass From Me

[Totton Linnet]

....I KNEW there was some good thing in me, that is in my flesh......isn't God lucky that I chose Him?


I chose Him before the world was founded so that He could have confidence in my faithfulness.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I know that's what you believe. That's ok. Me, I can't get past the passages that say none seek Him not even one.
The only way that those verses make any sense for me is if they teach that since none sought Him, He by His great love made the first move.

The Lord makes the first move by sending the gospel out to the unbeliever:

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Ro.10:13-14).​

The moderate position and balanced view IMO is where because of divine enabling I can choose to believe my faith is exercised by me and God's sovereignty is fully involved as He did it all

Of course the gospel comes with divine enablement:

"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance" (1 Thess.1:5).​

Your position is too far on the human responsibility side and it will, if followed to its logical conclusion be a faith that is based upon human merit and a faith that God was obligated to respond to, a faith where you took the first step in your salvation. I think.

You are wrong and I have demonstrated that it is not man who takes the first step in salvation. So I cannot see how you can disagree with what I said here:

No one is chosen for salvation until they believe.​

 

[intojoy]

The Lord makes the first move by sending the gospel out to the unbeliever:

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Ro.10:13-14).​

Of course the gospel comes with divine enablement:

"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance" (1 Thess.1:5).​

You are wrong and I have demonstrated that it is not man who takes the first step in salvation. So I cannot see how you can disagree with what I said here:

No one is chosen for salvation until they believe.​

"No one is chosen for salvation until they believe"

So God gives us the chance to earn His choosing if we believe?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

"No one is chosen for salvation until they believe"

So God gives us the chance to earn His choosing if we believe?

No, the following verse shows that the reason why the Lord has chosen us for salvation is because we believe:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

 

[intojoy]

No, the following verse shows that the reason why the Lord has chosen us for salvation is because we believe:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

That's what I asked is it because we believe that we are chosen?

 

[intojoy]

Put that way, belief becomes a work jerry.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That's what I asked is it because we believe that we are chosen?

Yes, of course it is. That is what this verse clearly says:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

Put that way, belief becomes a work jerry.

Too bad you were not living in the first century so you could have corrected Paul.

 

[intojoy]

....I KNEW there was some good thing in me, that is in my flesh......isn't God lucky that I chose Him?


I chose Him before the world was founded so that He could have confidence in my faithfulness.

How sweet

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

There's no reason to correct Paul since the Gospel Jesus preached was given Paul directly. We are saved by God's grace. We don't have do anything, but we will. We are saved by grace thru faith. Where did this faith come from? It came from God so that we would not boast because it was a free gift, no strings attached. What about good works? We are God's creation created in Christ Jesus for good works. These works were prepared ahead of time, before the foundations of the universe were laid, so that we should walk and abide in them. Give God and His Son, my Lord and Savior Jesus the Messiah full credit. Don't steal from God's grace and chalk it up to your account as works!<!-- / sig -->

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There's no reason to correct Paul since the Gospel Jesus preached was given Paul directly. We are saved by God's grace. We don't have do anything, but we will. We are saved by grace thru faith. Where did this faith come from?

Where does faith come from?:

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Ro.10:17).​

We can also see that even those who are described as perishing could believe if it were not for the fact that their minds were blinded to the truth of the gospel:

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).​

This proves that even those who are unbelievers and are perishing have the ability to believe the gospel. That contradicts the teaching of Calvinism that only those who been regenerated can believe!

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

Where does faith come from?:

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Ro.10:17).​

We can also see that even those who are described as perishing could believe if it were not for the fact that their minds were blinded to the truth of the gospel:

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).​

This proves that even those who are unbelievers and are perishing have the ability to believe the gospel. That contradicts the teaching of Calvinism that only those who been regenerated can believe!

The answer to the question is given in Ephesians which I quoted. I do not need to mix and match Paul's letters to support my theology.

 

[Totton Linnet]

How sweet

Quaint

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The answer to the question is given in Ephesians which I quoted. I do not need to mix and match Paul's letters to support my theology.

It is salvation which is the gift of God, not faith. And you just ignored the passage which I quoted which proves that the Calvinists are in error when they teach that a person must be given life before they can believe.

But the words of John here makes it plain that "life" comes as a result of believing and not before believing:

"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

The passage I quoted earlier proves that even those who are described as perishing could believe the gospel if their minds were not blinded to its light.

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

It is salvation which is the gift of God, not faith. And you just ignored the passage which I quoted which proves that the Calvinists are in error when they teach that a person must be given life before they can believe.

But the words of John here makes it plain that "life" comes as a result of believing and not before believing:

"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:30-31).
​

The passage I quoted earlier proves that even those who are described as perishing could believe the gospel if their minds were not blinded to its light.

We are saved (salvation) by grace (unmerited and unearned favor from God) through faith (there can be no salvation without faith and where does that faith come from?) faith comes from God (that's what the Bible states) not by works (salvation by works is pharisaical) so that no one can brag (not even you or I). Good works will accompany our salvation because God has prepared them for us (God leaves nothing to chance). [Ephesians 2:8-10)

Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of His disciples (signs and wonders accompany Jesus wherever He is, and the Elect, those chosen by God before the foundation of the world was laid, respond to them). These signs and wonders are written (so those Elect of us not present will respond as if we were, I can certainly attest to that), that believe (once again the gift of faith we have not earned) will have life (beyond this earthly habitat) in His name. Praise God, praise Jesus and praise the Holy Spirit. Amen. [John 20:30-31]

 

[Jerry Shugart]

We are saved (salvation) by grace (unmerited and unearned favor from God) through faith (there can be no salvation without faith and where does that faith come from?) faith comes from God (that's what the Bible states)

Calvinism teaches that life precedes faith and it is that life which gives a person the ability to believe the gospel. However, the Apostle John makes it plain that "life" comes as a result of believing and nor prior to believing:

"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

We can see that same truth here:

" And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col.2:13).​

No one can be made TOGETHER with Christ while they remain defiled in their sins and no one has their sins forgiven until they believe:

"All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name" (Acts 10:43).​

The following verse shows our position in Christ when we are made alive together with us:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

That life which we are made alive "together" with Him is described as "eternal life." John Calvin says the following about 1 John 5:11:

"But the Apostle, that he might keep us together in Christ, again repeats that life is found in him; as though he had said, that no other way of obtaining life has been appointed for us by God the Father. And the Apostle, indeed, briefly includes here three things: that we are all given up to death until God in his gratuitous favor restores us to life; for he plainly declares that life is a gift from God: and hence also it follows that we are destitute of it, and that it cannot be acquired by merits; secondly, he teaches us that this life is conferred on us by the gospel, because there the goodness and the paternal love of God is made known to us; lastly, he says that we cannot otherwise become partakers of this life than by believing in Christ" (John Calvin, Commentary on 1 John 5:11).​

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Calvinism teaches that life precedes faith and it is that life which gives a person the ability to believe the gospel.

The spiritually dead cannot receive the Good News by faith, as their total inability prevents as such, for the lost...

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Hence it should be clear from Scripture that once the spiritually dead are quickened by the efficacious grace of God through the power of the Holy Spirit, their hearts of stone replaced with hearts of flesh (Eze. 36:26), that they will then want and will believe.

Once so regenerated the chosen of God will believe and be "in Christ", possessing the life of which the verses you have twisted actually teach, for it is in Him that we live and breathe (Acts 17:28).

AMR

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The spiritually dead cannot receive the Good News by faith, as their total inability prevents as such, for the lost...

They indeed can since the gospel comes in the power of the Holy Spirit.

And why did you fail to address the verses which I cited that disprove the idea of Calvinism that life does not precede life?

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

Calvinism teaches that life precedes faith and it is that life which gives a person the ability to believe the gospel. However, the Apostle John makes it plain that "life" comes as a result of believing and nor prior to believing:

Do you have a particular problem with anything I wrote above? I promise (Lord willing) that we'll get to the rest of your post when I'm home and have had a beer (just 1). Show me where you think I'm in error in either paragraph, without bringing in more scripture to muddy the waters.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Do you have a particular problem with anything I wrote above?

Let us look first at what you said here:

Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of His disciples (signs and wonders accompany Jesus wherever He is, and the Elect, those chosen by God before the foundation of the world was laid, respond to them). (beyond this earthly habitat) in His name. Praise God, praise Jesus and praise the Holy Spirit. Amen. [John 20:30-31]

The elect are chosen because they believe:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

So it is not like God chose the elect and then gave them a so-called gift of faith so that they might believe. They were chosen because they believe.

We are saved (salvation) by grace (unmerited and unearned favor from God) through faith (there can be no salvation without faith and where does that faith come from?) faith comes from God (that's what the Bible states)

Faith comes from God in the sense that He sends His ministers to preach the gospel and faith comes by hearing the gospel which comes in the power of the Holy Spirit. Those who do not resist the Holy Spirit will believe.

not by works (salvation by works is pharisaical) so that no one can brag (not even you or I). Good works will accompany our salvation because God has prepared them for us (God leaves nothing to chance). [Ephesians 2:8-10)

Salvation is not attained through works and I can agree with the rest.

 

[Psalmist]

Jerry,

There is no if in God's vocabulary, for He knows all things past, present, and future, having ordained them. The human nature of Jesus was speaking here, staggering under the weight of what was to come, the cup, that is, the wrath of God. While in this terrible state, note how our Lord, while shrinking from this coming wrath, refused to shrink from doing the eternal will of God, pactum salutis, perfectly willing to drink of the last drop of the cup for those whom He was sent.

AMR

Staggering under the weight of what was to come.

I cannot imagine the weight or load that Jesus bore, some might say the weight of the world. I was reminded of Luke 9:51, Now it came to pass, when the time had come for Him to be received up, that He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem, "Set" is to be resolute or I suppose with steadfast determination, so it would be even asking as we read in Matthew 26:39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will." I believe even though Jesus ask if it's possible... Still He was set, resolute and determined to to carry out the will of the Father.

May that be so for us in our daily Christian lives to say, "Never the less, not my will, but Father Your will."

That probably reads going around in a circle, but that's what I think.​