Theology Club: If It Be Possible, Let This Cup Pass From Me
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
If it was set in stone that the Jews would not receive the kingdom until sometimes after the year 2004 then it is obvious that it could not have been ushered in at any moment in the first century.
I've been gracing you with the option of using the word imminent. I can see now my fault in allowing this. Yeshua said that the kingdom was within you.
You have to as a necessity change that wording because your theology requires it.
I'm going to have to at this point deny you the use of that term. I don't read Yeshua making the direct offer of the kingdom anywhere, do you? No? Ok.
Let's continue then.
I've put down the correct teaching on the unpardonable sin here on TOL but you still seem to vacillate on its definition. That's significant to this discussion because what we do read concerning Messiah's kingdom program while present is that He doesn't come out and directly offer the people to defeat the Gentiles and set up the kingdom. What He does do is perform miracles that authenticate His person and in Matthew 12 with the unpardonable sin committed by that generation, His Messianic person is rejected. I guess I'm guilty of claiming that there was an offer when the offer did not get made because before that offer could be made His claim as Messiah was rejected. Thanks for this discussion as it has given me a clearer argument against you. Not that I would be arguing against open theism any time soon since it doesn't interest me.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So you must believe that the will of God is now being done as it is in heaven:
"And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth" (Lk.11:2).
It must really be a mess up there in heaven!
"Will the faultfinder contend with the Almighty? Let him who reproves God answer it." (Job 40:2 NASB)
Eisegesis (formed from the Greek preposition εἰς "into" and the ending from the English word exegesis, which in turn is derived from ἐξηγεῖσθαι "to lead out") is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that it introduces one's own presuppositions ...
Saved.One.by.Grace
New member
Jesus said He did not know the date, only the Father in Heaven did. We are always to be prepared.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You are beginning to use the arguments of the preterists now.
If the kingdom came in the first century why did the Lord Jesus says that it will only be near when He returns to the earth?:
"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).
The Lord Jesus will not sit upon His throne until He returns to earth:
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).
Are you willing to argue that this happened in the first century?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The subject under discussion is whether or not all things were planned by God and are therefore set in stone (meaning the future is closed, it is already determined).
If the future is set in stone then the Lord Jesus would never have told the Jews to repent because the kingdom was "at hand":
" From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (eggizō)" (Mt.4:17).
The Greek word eggizō in this verse means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).
The word "ïmminent" means that it could happen at any moment.
If it was determined beforehand that the kingdom could not possibly come until the 21st century the Lord Jesus would never have told the Jews that it could happen at any moment.
Therefore, we know that things are not set in stone and the future is open.
There's a difference when jerry argues for certain doctrines like OSAS or Israel future. That's why I like him. But when it comes to debatable matters he's a shifty critter boy!
That's when the sin nature that glory daze says we don't have starts coming thru in him.
Like an opposite transfiguration of the mount of olives where the Shekinah glory burned right on thru the flesh of Yeshua only its Jerry's sin nature burnin right on thru his new nature.
That was free
That's when the sin nature that glory daze says we don't have starts coming thru in him.
Like an opposite transfiguration of the mount of olives where the Shekinah glory burned right on thru the flesh of Yeshua only its Jerry's sin nature burnin right on thru his new nature.
That was free
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
They claim that the following verse has already been fulfilled:
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).
You must also since you think that the kingdom is already here.
Yes, I am so shifty that I quote the Scriptures to support my ideas and nothing could be more shifty than that.
Don't you think you're shifty by quoting my posts only partially?
We can walk down that path together and have a look if you'd like to.
Let's do that shall we?
When you are commenting on OSAS with Jason/meshak/GT etc you are quite different in your approach.
That's because it's milk food and it doesn't take a degree to point out the baby food.
But when you come to a debatable matter like God's work in time and out of time you act like a devil. Like my 10 year old. It's fun to tease him when he's being bad too.
You're argument is so without confidence and lacking conviction that you're not even aware of this behavior on display here in front of uncle Delmar and Journey.