I Love Jesus and I Accept Evolution

[Alate_One]

That which you assert without evidence we are justified in ignoring without reason.

So you understand why I ignore Hydroplate "theory"?

 

[6days]

It came about because of the evidence, just like how the age of the universe has been determined to be over 13 billion years old.

Are you sure that it isn't 12.5 billion years?https://arxiv.org/abs/1903.07603 Or, maybe its 19.7 billion years...maybe there are "undiscovered 'iron factories" in the early universe? https://sci.esa.int/web/xmm-newton/-/30255-is-the-universe-older-than-expected Perhaps, the evidence shows the universe is just 8billion years https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg13418222-800-science-sharper-evidence-for-a-young-universe/

I wonder how fast God spread the stars after He created them... how would redshift, and other measurements be effected if light was actually trillions of times faster? https://cosmosmagazine.com/physics/was-the-speed-of-light-faster-at-the-beginning-of-the-universe I wonder what the ratio of AL26 was to 26MG after creation?

 

[Arthur Brain]

Are you sure that it isn't 12.5 billion years?https://arxiv.org/abs/1903.07603 Or, maybe its 19.7 billion years...maybe there are "undiscovered 'iron factories" in the early universe? https://sci.esa.int/web/xmm-newton/-/30255-is-the-universe-older-than-expected Perhaps, the evidence shows the universe is just 8billion years https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg13418222-800-science-sharper-evidence-for-a-young-universe/

I wonder how fast God spread the stars after He created them... how would redshift, and other measurements be effected if light was actually trillions of times faster? https://cosmosmagazine.com/physics/was-the-speed-of-light-faster-at-the-beginning-of-the-universe I wonder what the ratio of AL26 was to 26MG after creation?

The plethora of data available determines that the universe is billions of years old if not to the exact year or thousands of years give or take. It's certainly older than thousands of years in itself else why would the evidence state otherwise?

 

[JudgeRightly]

You're making assumptions about my church and you're wrong. They very much hold to a physical death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

That may be true, but they've removed the reason for it.

They simply believe, as I do, that nature was also given by God and studying nature (science) in some cases helps us interpret scripture when it is ambiguous.

This is goalpost moving.

What's important about Genesis is that God made the universe.

:thumb:

How is not clearly spelled out.

Um, have you never read Genesis 1?

Here, I'll quote it for you. Look how clearly spelled out it is.

Spoiler

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.”Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so.And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so.And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.So the evening and the morning were the third day.Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so.Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth,and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.”So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.”So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so.And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food.Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so.Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. - Genesis 1:1-31 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis1:1-31&version=NKJV

Looking at Genesis differently does NOT lead to rejecting all miracles in scripture.

Looking at the creation account in Genesis as anything other than an actual description (not "poetry," not "woodenly literal") of how God made the universe undermines the entire reason Christ went to the Cross.

Any more than when people realized the earth wasn't the center of the universe.

Well, it is, if the CMBr data is being interpreted correctly, but I'm not a geocentrist or flat-earther...

You should stop fighting against reality and worry about what's really important.

Maybe you should stop trying to undermine the reason for Christ's DB&R.

 

[6days]

You're making assumptions about my church and you're wrong. They very much hold to a physical death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I didn't say otherwise... I did say your church is preaching a compromised gospel. Jesus suffered physical death at the cross, because physical death entered our world when first Adam sinned. (Romans 5, 1st Corinthians 15 and others).

They simply believe, as I do, that nature was also given by God and studying nature (science) in some cases helps us interpret scripture when it is ambiguous.

Sadly (again) you are accepting ambiguous, ever changing secular conclusions over the unambiguous Word of God. Death entered our world from one mans sin.

What's important about Genesis is that God made the universe. How is not clearly spelled out.

In six days, God created the heaven and the earth and everything in them...and rested the seventh day. That seems fairly clear. It also seems clear that physical death entered our world after first Adam sinned. It is also clear that Jesus believed Genesis teaching humanity existed from the beginning as described in Genesis 1... And from a time near the foundation of the world.

You should stop fighting against reality and worry about what's really important.

My reality is Jesus. The reason we need a Savior is important, as is the reason Christ went to Calvary. His physical death becomes unnecessary when you add billions of years into the clear teaching of Scripture.

Alate… Even in Scripture Paul preached against people who believed in an old earth (Epicureans). And virtually every early church father for hundreds of years argued against old earthers. The reason it was important to them... and to many Christians today, is because an old earth makes the cross unnecessary. (It is a belief that God created using pain, suffering, death and extinctions). Early church fathers from Theophilus (Even Josephus before that)to Augustine felt it was important to the Gospel arguing against old earth beliefs. The only exception was Origen who seemed to have several other heretical beliefs such as believing Satan was going to be saved.

 

[6days]

You don't need numbers attached to Siccar point to tell you a pattern like that takes more than a few thousand years to form.

How solid do you think that rock was after the flood?

 

[Arthur Brain]

I didn't say otherwise... I did say your church is preaching a compromised gospel. Jesus suffered physical death at the cross, because physical death entered our world when first Adam sinned. (Romans 5, 1st Corinthians 15 and others).
Sadly (again) you are accepting ambiguous, ever changing secular conclusions over the unambiguous Word of God. Death entered our world from one mans sin.
In six days, God created the heaven and the earth and everything in them...and rested the seventh day. That seems fairly clear. It also seems clear that physical death entered our world after first Adam sinned. It is also clear that Jesus believed Genesis teaching humanity existed from the beginning as described in Genesis 1... And from a time near the foundation of the world.
My reality is Jesus. The reason we need a Savior is important, as is the reason Christ went to Calvary. His physical death becomes unnecessary when you add billions of years into the clear teaching of Scripture.

Alate… Even in Scripture Paul preached against people who believed in an old earth (Epicureans). And virtually every early church father for hundreds of years argued against old earthers. The reason it was important to them... and to many Christians today, is because an old earth makes the cross unnecessary. (It is a belief that God created using pain, suffering, death and extinctions). Early church fathers from Theophilus (Even Josephus before that)to Augustine felt it was important to the Gospel arguing against old earth beliefs. The only exception was Origen who seemed to have several other heretical beliefs such as believing Satan was going to be saved.

Um, I think you'll find that Augustine was hardly a steadfast "young earther" either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegorical_interpretations_of_Genesis

Not exactly a complete disdain for the notion but an informed view of the problems.

Quite a lot of the "early church" had "heretical beliefs" apparently...

 

[Right Divider]

So, you think that science is based on assumptions? That the age of the universe is little more than some untested hunch?

We can all see your false accusations and we have to pity you.

No I did NOT said that SCIENCE is based on assumptions. I said that RADIOMETRIC DATING is based on MULTIPLE assumptions.

 

[Arthur Brain]

We can all see your false accusations and we have to pity you.

No I did NOT said that SCIENCE is based on assumptions. I said that RADIOMETRIC DATING is based on MULTIPLE assumptions.

Oh, another one with the royal "we"...it's like talking to someone out of "Split"...

Whatever. If you have an unshakable belief in a young earth because your faith or some such demands it then just believe the earth is no older than a few thousand years old and the universe likewise.

 

[Right Divider]

Oh, another one with the royal "we"...it's like talking to someone out of "Split"...

Whatever. If you have an unshakable belief in a young earth because your faith or some such demands it then just believe the earth is no older than a few thousand years old and the universe likewise.

We can see that you have no idea how radiometric dating works nor the multiple assumptions that is requires.

 

[Arthur Brain]

We can see that you have no idea how radiometric dating works nor the multiple assumptions that is requires.

I'm surprised you can see anything much considering how many eyes you must be looking through at the minute...

Otherwise, the age of the universe is hardly some random figure arrived at by a game of yahtzee...

 

[ok doser]

We can see that you have no idea how radiometric dating works nor the multiple assumptions that is requires.

There's those pesky assumptions again :chuckle:

 

[Alate_One]

That may be true, but they've removed the reason for it.

Maybe you should stop trying to undermine the reason for Christ's DB&R.

First, in no way does an old earth negate the reason for Jesus death. Humans are clearly sinful, Adam or no.

But an old earth doesn't necessarily negate Adam either.

The idea that physical death didn't exist in any creature on Earth before Adam is almost certainly wrong. It makes zero sense biologically. Where does death draw the line? Can bacteria die? What about insects? Can cells die? Cells *must* die to form your fingers and toes.

If Christ came to save us from physical death, then why does everyone still die? Jesus (or Paul for that matter) didn't seem too concerned with physical death. But spiritual death/separation from God is the true worry and the real thing we need to be saved from, the second death.

I think your theology is confused with regards to both scripture and science. You've tried to make things neat and tidy but they don't work scripturally or scientifically.

 

[Right Divider]

I'm surprised you can see anything much considering how many eyes you must be looking through at the minute...

How childish.... but that's you.

Otherwise, the age of the universe is hardly some random figure arrived at by a game of yahtzee...

It's amusing to us when you don't discuss issues but just start childishly ranting.

 

[6days]

Um, I think you'll find that Augustine was hardly a steadfast "young earther" either.

You are wrong about that. Augustine actually thought God might have created instantaneously, rather than 6 days. He was relying on a Latin translation rather than the Hebrew. But in any case, he clearly rejected old earth beliefs (In spite of what many theists believe). Augustine said "Unbelievers are also deceived by false documents which ascribe to history many thousand years, although we can calculate from Sacred Scripture that not 6,000 years have passed since the creation of man." Augustine City of God Book 12 ch 10

 

[6days]

The idea that physical death didn't exist in any creature on Earth before Adam is almost certainly wrong.

Lets trust God on this, OK? He says physical death entered our world after man sinned. Life according to how God defined it was to Nepesh creatures. Although we consider plants alive... they didn't experience life / death as defined by God.

In fact... take a look at what humans and animals were given for food... God gave them a vegetarian diet. It was only much later in Genesis 9(sin had entered the world) that God said "I now give you everything for food"

If Christ came to save us from physical death, then why does everyone still die?

We live in a world cursed by sin... We experience pain suffering and death. But because Christ defeated death in the resurrection, we can also join him in the resurrection.

Jesus (or Paul for that matter) didn't seem too concerned with physical death.

That's simply false...perhaps poor teaching from your church. Paul refers to physical death as the "final enemy" and that is why there is a physical resurrection.

But spiritual death/separation from God is the true worry and the real thing we need to be saved from, the second death.

If that was true... then Christ did not need defeat physical death. He would have only had to suffer spiritual death. Scripture teaches that in order for us to be saved, Jesus had to defeat both physical and spiritual death.

 

[Arthur Brain]

How childish.... but that's you.


It's amusing to us when you don't discuss issues but just start childishly ranting.

Says the guy who continually refers to himself in the plural. Real mature...

 

[Right Divider]

Says the guy who continually refers to himself in the plural. Real mature...

How is using "we" childish? It's not... so try again.

 

[Arthur Brain]

How is using "we" childish? It's not... so try again.

Pretentious, pompous? No need for it but knock yourself out.

 

[Right Divider]

Pretentious, pompous? No need for it but knock yourself out.

So since you cannot handle the content of my posts you have to nitpick about that? Figures...