ECT I Corinthians 3:17

[nikolai_42]

Very simple. What does this mean :

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
I Corinthians 3:16-17

First, in the English, Paul is saying "ye" are the temple of God. The English, then, seems to be saying that the church (corporate) is the temple. Is there any grammatical (Greek) justification for taking this also (or rather) in an individual way?

Then, once that is established, the term for "defile" is always (in other places) translated as "corrupt". In the corporate sense, is this simply a way of saying "lead astray"? To change the gospel, for example? To change any other God-given truth into a lie? Or are there other ways of understanding this?

 

[elohiym]

Is there any grammatical (Greek) justification for taking this also (or rather) in an individual way?

1 Corinthians 6:19 "...τὸ σῶμα ὑμῶν..."

Your body is the temple.

 

[nikolai_42]

1 Corinthians 6:19 "...τὸ σῶμα ὑμῶν..."

Your body is the temple.

So is it only individual? Or is it corporate as well?

And what does it mean, then, to corrupt or defile your own body (in this context)?

 

[elohiym]

Very simple. What does this mean :

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
I Corinthians 3:16-17

First, in the English, Paul is saying "ye" are the temple of God. The English, then, seems to be saying that the church (corporate) is the temple.

It doesn't seem to be stating that.

Does the spirit dwell in you as an individual or in a corporation?

 

[nikolai_42]

It doesn't seem to be stating that.

Does the spirit dwell in you as an individual or in a corporation?

The English word "ye" refers to more than one person. And, in the corporate sense, the Spirit does dwell in the church. But in the individual sense the Holy Spirit indwells believers. It isn't an either/or. A church without the Holy Spirit is not Christ's church at all (individual and corporate).

 

[elohiym]

And what does it mean, then, to corrupt or defile your own body (in this context)?

1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.

Make sense?

 

[nikolai_42]

1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.

Make sense?

Absolutely. So is that what Paul is (specifically) talking about in I Corinthians 3?

EDIT : The context of the 2 verses I quoted is a man's works being founded on Christ (or not) and don't seem to quite fit with a specific rebuke about sexual immorality (though I agree that would certainly apply give what he said in chapter 6).

 

[elohiym]

The English word "ye" refers to more than one person.

Paul is addressing more than one person in his letter.

And, in the corporate sense, the Spirit does dwell in the church.

It dwells in the body of Christ. Not every Christian church or person that calls himself a believer is in the body of Christ. We probably agree that a child of the devil is not in the body of Christ.

The problem I see with interpreting the verse in the corporate sense is that it suggests membership in the corporation automatically means a person receives the Spirit. If it's possible for some people in your congregation to be children of the devil it cannot mean they have received the Spirit in the corporate sense.

But in the individual sense the Holy Spirit indwells believers.

I agree with that.

It isn't an either/or.

Seems like it is to me. :idunno:

A church without the Holy Spirit is not Christ's church at all (individual and corporate).

The church is the body of Christ consisting of individual members who are all temples of the Spirit, each having received the Spirit. They can defile their temple without defiling your temple. You can keep from defiling your temple while everyone else is defiling their temple. Make sense?

 

[Cross Reference]

Very simple. What does this mean :

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
I Corinthians 3:16-17

First, in the English, Paul is saying "ye" are the temple of God. The English, then, seems to be saying that the church (corporate) is the temple. Is there any grammatical (Greek) justification for taking this also (or rather) in an individual way?

Then, once that is established, the term for "defile" is always (in other places) translated as "corrupt". In the corporate sense, is this simply a way of saying "lead astray"? To change the gospel, for example? To change any other God-given truth into a lie? Or are there other ways of understanding this?

It doesn't "seem" to be saying that at all if you consider that those born again have the "Word of God" indwelling them. You might want to define that, if anything, to mean man was purposed to be the Temple of God. ____ Church simply is where they come together to express whatever the "Word of God" might wish say on a corporate level.

 

[elohiym]

Absolutely. So is that what Paul is (specifically) talking about in I Corinthians 3?

EDIT : The context of the 2 verses I quoted is a man's works being founded on Christ (or not) and don't seem to quite fit with a specific rebuke about sexual immorality (though I agree that would certainly apply give what he said in chapter 6).

Look at the beginning of chapter 3. The context is immorality, the jealousy and strife that caused Paul to refer to them as carnal instead of spiritual. They were dividing over following ministers of the gospel instead of building each other on the foundation of our faith.

Also, chapter 6 is not only about sexual immorality as some have translated the verse. The NASB translates it as immorality in general, not specifically sexual immorality. Any immorality you commit is defiling your body. There is no immorality anyone can commit without defiling their body.

 

[Son of Jack]

I think the issue that needs clarification is, what exactly is meant when nik and elo use the word church? Nik seems to be using it in the sense that every gathering of local assemblies are churches. Elo seems to be using it in the more universal sense of the word; in other words, the church is the Body.

The other question is, which of these two meanings is at the back of Paul's thinking as he writes to the Corinthians?

 

[nikolai_42]

Paul is addressing more than one person in his letter.

And Paul doesn't say "Ye are the temples of God". There has to be some grammatical agreement and in this case, corporate body as where God dwells seems to be the implication (grammatically, at least). But the justification for "ye" is something I haven't seen - hoping someone can provide that.

It dwells in the body of Christ. Not every Christian church or person that calls himself a believer is in the body of Christ. We probably agree that a child of the devil is not in the body of Christ.

The problem I see with interpreting the verse in the corporate sense is that it suggests membership in the corporation automatically means a person receives the Spirit. If it's possible for some people in your congregation to be children of the devil it cannot mean they have the Spirit in the corporate sense or any sense.

Remember...Paul said "Christ in you" is the hope of glory. Very personal. But Jesus Himself said "Where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them". So there seems to me to be a distinction between the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in an individual way and in a corporate way. One certainly is a consequence of the other...

But it certainly need not infer that church membership grants one the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Only that there are corporate blessings derived from the relationship God has with some in the assembly. And one of those benefits is being exposed to the Spirit of truth being at work in someone.

Remember also, Jesus said this :

He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
Matthew 10:40-41

Does verse 40 mean that if you accept a person who is in Christ that you are automatically in Christ as well? No. Verse 41 clarifies and says that there is a reward to those who do so. But that reward is not the Holy Spirit. It's sort of a NT re-application of "I will bless them that bless you and curse them that curse you."

I agree with that.

Seems like it is to me. :idunno:

The church is the body of Christ consisting of individual members who are all temples of the Spirit, each having received the Spirit. They can defile their temple without defiling your temple. You can keep from defiling your temple while everyone else is defiling their temple. Make sense?

Yes. And while I don't disagree, remember that I am saying it is a both/and situation - not an either/or.

 

[oatmeal]

Very simple. What does this mean :

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
I Corinthians 3:16-17

First, in the English, Paul is saying "ye" are the temple of God. The English, then, seems to be saying that the church (corporate) is the temple. Is there any grammatical (Greek) justification for taking this also (or rather) in an individual way?

Then, once that is established, the term for "defile" is always (in other places) translated as "corrupt". In the corporate sense, is this simply a way of saying "lead astray"? To change the gospel, for example? To change any other God-given truth into a lie? Or are there other ways of understanding this?

Your observation is accurate.

Ye is plural. The temple is the body of Christ which has many members.

 

[nikolai_42]

Look at the beginning of chapter 3. The context is immorality, the jealousy and strife that caused Paul to refer to them as carnal instead of spiritual. They were dividing over following ministers of the gospel instead of building each other on the foundation of our faith.

Also, chapter 6 is not only about sexual immorality as some have translated the verse. The NASB translates it as immorality in general, not specifically sexual immorality. Any immorality you commit is defiling your body. There is no immorality anyone can commit without defiling their body.

In chapter 3, he is talking about divisions and strife...works and wisdom. Nowhere is it hinted that his is Paul coming against sexual immorality.

In chapter 6, the terms Paul uses make it clear that the immorality against one's body is sexual immorality (harlots, fornication, one flesh...). Otherwise, there is a strong case to be made that one sinning against one's body has to do with eating unclean foods. Will God destroy a believer for eating pork?

 

[nikolai_42]

I think the issue that needs clarification is, what exactly is meant when nik and elo use the word church? Nik seems to be using it in the sense that every gathering of local assemblies are churches. Elo seems to be using it in the more universal sense of the word; in other words, the church is the Body.

The other question is, which of these two meanings is at the back of Paul's thinking as he writes to the Corinthians?

Good thought. I see Paul - who has visited the Corinthian church and is discipling it - as recognizing that this church planting is valid. That doesn't mean that every individual is in Christ, but that Paul is treating them as though they were and giving them instruction as though they were (for the benefit of those who are). So the local church is seen as a gathering of believers but one that may well (and probably always includes) unbelievers. Paul doesn't necessarily know who is who.

But there is a universal sense, too. And I could even see that here. In the same way individual/local church is a single/multiple distinction, so is local church/universal church (just on a much larger scale). But we don't see things on a local/universal level. We can only see on an individual/local level.

 

[nikolai_42]

It doesn't "seem" to be saying that at all if you consider that those born again have the "Word of God" indwelling them. You might want to define that, if anything, to mean man was purposed to be the Temple of God. ____ Church simply is where they come together to express whatever the "Word of God" might wish say on a corporate level.

But that coming together is not guaranteed to be limited to those in Christ, is it?

 

[DAN P]

Very simple. What does this mean :

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
I Corinthians 3:16-17

First, in the English, Paul is saying "ye" are the temple of God. The English, then, seems to be saying that the church (corporate) is the temple. Is there any grammatical (Greek) justification for taking this also (or rather) in an individual way?

Then, once that is established, the term for "defile" is always (in other places) translated as "corrupt". In the corporate sense, is this simply a way of saying "lead astray"? To change the gospel, for example? To change any other God-given truth into a lie? Or are there other ways of understanding this?

Hi , and here is a better translation of 1 Cor 3:16 , Don't you know that you are God's INNER SANCTUARY , and the SPIRIT of God DWELLS in you ??

#1 , The verb tense " KNOW YE / EIDO " is in the Greek Perfect Tense , ACTIVE VOICE and in the Indicative Mood .

It means that from the writing of salvation UNTIL you die . you can know that we are God's Sanctuary forever !

The Active Voice means that the Subject , the Holy Spirit is the one producing the Action of the Prefect Tense !

The Indicative Mood means it is a FACT .


#2 , The second verb , " YE ARE /ESTE " is in the CONTINUOUS ACTION that we are ALWAYS in God's SANCTUARY .

The third verb tense " DWELLETH /OIKEO " is also in the Greek PRESENT TENSE and just means we ARE ALWAYS being Dwelleth by the Holy SPIRIT !

DAN P

 

[elohiym]

In chapter 3, he is talking about divisions and strife...works and wisdom. Nowhere is it hinted that his is Paul coming against sexual immorality.

He is coming against immorality, as I explained. He called some of them "still carnal."

In chapter 6, the terms Paul uses make it clear that the immorality against one's body is sexual immorality (harlots, fornication, one flesh...). Otherwise, there is a strong case to be made that one sinning against one's body has to do with eating unclean foods. Will God destroy a believer for eating pork?

Whatever is immoral under the new covenant defiles the temple. There is no point limiting defilement to sexual immorality, even if you believe Paul was only writing of sexual immorality in that chapter.

 

[Cross Reference]

But that coming together is not guaranteed to be limited to those in Christ, is it?

No doubt, however, the presumptuous don't know that by tradition and show up with their ignorance intact. What they don't realize, after a while, is that the Holy Spirit doesn't show up leaving everyone to programs and other social entertainment to satisfy the them.. Is it any wonder Islam is winning the day?

 

[elohiym]

I think the issue that needs clarification is, what exactly is meant when nik and elo use the word church? Nik seems to be using it in the sense that every gathering of local assemblies are churches. Elo seems to be using it in the more universal sense of the word; in other words, the church is the Body.

The other question is, which of these two meanings is at the back of Paul's thinking as he writes to the Corinthians?

I believe Paul viewed every man as a temple able to receive the Spirit. That seems evident from his sermon on Mars Hill and the sixth chapter of first Corinthians. Is Paul viewing the temple in a corporate sense in the third chapter of first Corinthians like Peter does when he writes believers are lively stones forming a single building? I'm not convinced he is because of the defilement issue, as I've explained. I could be mistaken, so I'm open to the discussion.