Hurting People On TOL

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I will NEVER meet Meshak because, she has an uncanny ability to see
directly into the hearts and minds of men and women! MESHAK KNOWS!!!
BEWARE!!

 

[TulipBee]

You are jealous of their godly conduct which most of the mianstreamers don't strive to be.

You're gambling with autosuggestions and positive thinking hoping
you MIGHT be right. Thats not godly either. Please take one step back
from this kind of ungodly talk. You need to sure sure of what you're
saying before you say it. The Christians are sure of the notion
of the Trinity has its roots in the early history of the
Church. Tertullian, an early church writer, is generally credited as
being the first to use the term "Trinity" to describe God. However, it
wasn't until the fourth and fifth centuries that the doctrine was
officially adopted by the Church and recognized as a part of Orthodox
Christianity.

In short, the doctrine of the Trinity is the belief that God is three
simultaneous and separate manifestations of God all wrapped up into
one. In other words God the "Father," Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are
different manifestations of the God-head, but they are also at the
same time a unity. If this seems obtuse or difficult to understand,
you're not alone. The whole of the Trinity doctrine is considered to
be a "mystery" by the Church: a concept that is not understood, but
must be accepted. Infinity is another example of "mystery" because our
finite linear minds have great difficulty grasping the notion of
forever and no end or beginning, so we just accept it.

There is evidence in the New Testament to support the teaching of the
Trinity. The writer of Matthew understood there were three separate
manifestations of the Divine when he wrote that the disciples should
baptize in the names of "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit"
(Matthew 28.19). Further, in the gospel of John we read Jesus
promising God will send the Holy Spirit sometime after Jesus' death
(John 14.6). Thus in both of these passages we see the three
manifestations of God set forth.

To further support the notion of the Trinity, Jesus says that "The
Father and I are one" (John 10.30). This verse was one of the key
passages used to support the doctrine when the Church Councils met in
the fifth and sixth centuries.

 

[Right Divider]

A prayer is a request.

A Biblical prayer is always to God and it's NOT always a request. There should be many prayers of thanksgiving too.

The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and request them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

Neither one of your supposed examples are actually prayer directed to DEAD PEOPLE.

It's just amazing the twisted justifications people come up with to maintain their sinful religions.

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

Still absolutely NO justification for praying to DEAD PEOPLE.

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

A pretty far stretch indeed. Is Mary one of the twenty-four? Who are they? Where are you COMMANDED to pray TO THEM?

Now apologize

Prayers are always to be directly to God alone.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

A Biblical prayer is always to God and it's NOT always a request. There should be many prayers of thanksgiving too.............

I didn't say it was always a request. But sometimes it is, and when it is, it does not have to be to God alone.

Can I ask YOU to pray for me? I am sure you would say "Yes". There is nothing wrong with me asking somone else to pray for me. That is a "request". So when we pray to the Saints, we request that they pray for us. Its that simple.

Now I already know what is buzzing in your brain: "Yes, but you are not praying to me when you ask me to pray for you." Was I right?

Okay, this goes back to what I said earlier. When we say we pray "to" the saints, it is the archaic Old English form of the word we are using.

In Old English, the phrase "Pray thee", or its contraction "Prithee" was often used the way we might say "Would you please......". For example, we might say "Please open your door", whereas in Old English they might say, "Prithee open thy door", or "Pray thee, open thy door". Therefore, when we "pray" to saints we are making a request to them, which is: Please pray for us. We are asking them to pray for us.

 

[musterion]

Attempts to communicate with the dead, for any reason, is forbidden and condemned. There is no exception to this anywhere in the Bible.

There is no example of any of the apostles praying to (or for) believers who have died.

There is no instruction from any of the apostles instructing believers to pray to (or for) believers who have died.

Using any image (pesel) or likeness (temunah) as a focal point in prayer = idolatry.

Seeking after Mary or dead saints in prayer = seeking after the dead = spiritism = witchcraft = necromancy.

Seeking after Mary or dead saints in prayer using likenesses (temunah) of them = necromancy AND idolatry.

Insisting God is okay with such condemned practices (as well as what Mormons do baptizing for the dead) just because your church tells you He is, is why knowledgeable Bible believers consider your church a cult.

 

[glorydaz]

So you are not going to tell me how you think you can hurt people on TOL?
Okay.
I didn't think you would.

Let's just use a little common sense for a change, shall we? People who get their feelings hurt here on TOL are those who are self centered and not Christ centered. I'm so tired of you folks who whine whine whine about how mistreated they are, and how mean other people are to them them them.

In a nut-shell, people are doing you a favor when they smack you upside the head....you're just too dumb to know it.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Glorydaz is 100% correct!!

 

[meshak]

You're gambling with autosuggestions and positive thinking hoping
you MIGHT be right.

I trust Jesus and you guys don't. You rely on heavily on Paul's teachings. Your Lord is not Jesus.

You should be calling yourselves Paul's followers instead of Jesus' followers.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I trust Jesus and you guys don't. You rely on heavily on Paul's teachings. Your Lord is not Jesus.

You should be calling yourselves Paul's followers instead of Jesus' followers.

Meshak, trusts IN Meshak!

 

[chrysostom]

Meshak, trusts IN Meshak!

there is a question for you in the other thread

 

[musterion]

I trust Jesus and you guys don't. You rely on heavily on Paul's teachings. Your Lord is not Jesus.

You should be calling yourselves Paul's followers instead of Jesus' followers.

Jesus Himself wrote down nothing, so you're really trusting in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Which is your right...but don't accuse us of something when you're doing the same thing.

 

[glorydaz]

I trust Jesus

No, you don't.

and you guys don't.

Yes, we do.

You rely on heavily on Paul's teachings.

Yes, we do.

Your Lord is not Jesus.

Yes He is, AND our God.....but not yours. "The Lord thy God is ONE LORD."

You should be calling yourselves Paul's followers instead of Jesus' followers.

It matters not what a person calls himself, but what he is.....a new creature or the old man of the flesh. The old man of the flesh works really hard in the flesh to earn what he can only freely receive...that GIFT of God which is eternal life.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

 

[IMJerusha]

So it would seem, but there are many contradictions none the less. We need to understand them.

Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
(Matthew 16:20, KJV)
​

That's not a contradiction. That is an instruction from Yeshua to His disciples for that period of time. What many perceive as contradiction is not.

You need to read what the Bible actually says, not what you think that it says.

Lev 20:23-24 KJV
23 And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. 24 But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the Lord your God, which have separated you from other people.
​

When God says that He separated Israel from OTHER PEOPLE, that means ALL OTHER PEOPLE. Gentiles could most certainly JOIN WITH Israel but that does not void the fact that God chose Israel distinctly.

I would have to say the same thing to you and add read Scripture in its entirety as well as in context. Consider Leviticus 20:1-3 "The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Say to the Israelites: ‘Any Israelite or any foreigner residing in Israel who sacrifices any of his children to Molek is to be put to death. The members of the community are to stone him. 3 I myself will set my face against him and will cut him off from his people; for by sacrificing his children to Molek, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name.' "

The distinction was against pagans and idolators. ALL who called upon God's Name and worshiped Him were God's people and the same is true today.

The current dispensation where there is no separation is temporary. One day God will restore Israel to their place as the head of the nations.

I hope you're not confusing God's Israel with the land Israel. Yeshua is the Head of Israel and in Him are all the nations (Jew and Gentile) of believers.

If you don't, then you are blind.

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
(Romans 3:21, KJV)
​

What do you think "but now" means?

Paul states what "but now" means in verse 20. It means that we are not under the Law for righteousness but rather through the Law we become conscious of sin; that Jews and Gentiles alike are all still under sin and a righteousness from God apart from the Law is made known to us (Yeshua) and comes to us through faith in Yeshua. Paul's words confirm Yeshua's as found in John 15: 1-6 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Crumbs to the Gentiles indeed! Second class people during Yeshua's time on earth.

Matthew 15:21-28 KJV
21 ¶Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 24 But he answered and said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26 But he answered and said, "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs." 27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. 28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, "O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour."
​

He would not even talk to her, but did acknowledge her faith WHEN SHE PUT ISRAEL FIRST (also acknowledging her place as a 'dog').

Not when she put Israel, the people, first but rather when she put Him first, when she acknowledged her Head, her Master. "O woman, great is thy faith..." JUST as the Roman Centurion acknowledged Yeshua's authority.

I don't buy any form of replacement theology either, so don't even try to put those words in my mouth.

How can I when the flow from your mouth is so great?

We, the members of the body of Christ, do not need to belong to any of the tribes of Israel. We are IN CHRIST, not in Israel.

P.S. Yeshua is NOT Israel. He is the Almighty Creator of the Universe.

John 1:3 "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." God the Father is the Almighty Creator who made all things through Yeshua, so yes, Yeshua is Israel every bit as much as Israel is God's. "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

No, you don't.


Yes, we do.




Yes, we do.



Yes He is, AND our God.....but not yours. "The Lord thy God is ONE LORD."



It matters not what a person calls himself, but what he is.....a new creature or the old man of the flesh. The old man of the flesh works really hard in the flesh to earn what he can only freely receive...that GIFT of God which is eternal life.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

EXCELLENT!

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I didn't say it was always a request. But sometimes it is, and when it is, it does not have to be to God alone.

Can I ask YOU to pray for me? I am sure you would say "Yes". There is nothing wrong with me asking somone else to pray for me. That is a "request". So when we pray to the Saints, we request that they pray for us. Its that simple.

Now I already know what is buzzing in your brain: "Yes, but you are not praying to me when you ask me to pray for you." Was I right?

Okay, this goes back to what I said earlier. When we say we pray "to" the saints, it is the archaic Old English form of the word we are using.

In Old English, the phrase "Pray thee", or its contraction "Prithee" was often used the way we might say "Would you please......". For example, we might say "Please open your door", whereas in Old English they might say, "Prithee open thy door", or "Pray thee, open thy door". Therefore, when we "pray" to saints we are making a request to them, which is: Please pray for us. We are asking them to pray for us.

Attempts to communicate with the dead, for any reason, is forbidden and condemned..........

Once again, you show your ignorance. In the OT, that prohibition was regarding two-way communication, trying to have the dead speak to you in order to learn things. We do not do that. We do not try to "divine" things. Our requests go up, and through God the angels and saints hear them.

I swear dude, you are dumber than a box of rocks.

 

[meshak]

Jesus Himself wrote down nothing, so you're really trusting in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Which is your right...but don't accuse us of something when you're doing the same thing.

But His faithful ones did it. I trust His faithful servants too. And you guys are not it.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

But His faithful ones did it. I trust His faithful servants too. And you guys are not it.

Was Paul a faithful servant also?

 

[musterion]

But His faithful ones did it. I trust His faithful servants too. And you guys are not it.

If you trust Luke, you have to trust the book of Acts, where Luke describes Paul's conversion to Christ and ministry for Him. Luke also describes Paul's meeting with James, which means you can toss James' letter in the trash, too. And you can toss Luke's Gospel out the window.

You can also throw out Peter and his two letters, since Peter vouched for Paul. And if Peter can't be trusted the other three Gospels are trashed too, since they feature Peter so heavily.

So think about what you're saying, Hitomi: you cannot just ignore Paul. The other apostles won't let you. Every time you attack Paul you attack THEM because, directly or indirectly, they vouched for Paul. If you're going to hate Paul, you can cut these books out of your New World Translation, too:

Matthew (because Peter can't be trusted)
Mark (same)
Luke (because he lied about Paul)
John (same as Mark)
Acts (Luke lied about Paul)
1/2 Peter (he can't be trusted)
James (he can't be trusted)
1,2,3 John (he can't be trusted)

 

[meshak]

If you trust Luke, you have to trust the book of Acts,

It is not gospel, and there are not much of Jesus' teachings in it. So I don't take book of acts seriously.

and you are on ignore again. Your comments don't worth reading and replying.

good day.

 

[musterion]

Whenever you say you put me on Ignore, I know I said something that made sense to you but doesn't compute with the Watchtower programming.