How will 2P2P's Jews get to the millenium? Will they believe the Gospel?

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DAN P

Well-known member
Since 2P2P (MAD, D'ism) has worked out that there will be a Davidic theocracy from Jerusalem on earth operated by "chosen" people, could they please spell out how a person (a Jewish person) qualifies for this? Have the excelled at Judaism? Have they believed that Christ is the righteous sacrifice for them? What about heredity? Genetics? Genetic stock confusion? Will it be full of lots of Sauls but not Pauls? Why does the thing fall apart at the end in a short rebellion?


Hi and I like soft balls !!

Just read Ezek 36:24-38 !!

#1 iSRAEL WILL BE CLEANSED verse 25

32 , Israel given a NEW HEART in verse 26

#3, Israel will be given God's spirit in verse 27

#4, They will dwell in the LAND

#5AND SO ON AND ONNNNNNNNNNN

And Rom 11:26 confirms it !!

dan p
 

northwye

New member
Post number 54 in this thread is predictable for those in what is here called "2P2P" from a knowledge of the dialectic mentioned briefly in I Timothy 6: 20-21 and seen as examples in Genesis 3: 1-6 and in John 8: 31-44.

The point of the arguments by "2P2P" is partly to promote and defend a theology which is not made very clear or explicit, as far as how it differs from the teachings of John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer and some others and partly the argument is to continue the argument by use of the dialectic. The dialectic is not easy to understand. Yet you can say that the dialectic is an argument against that which is Truth or Morality in scripture.

If an opponent can be deceived into a continuing argument of bickering then he has in a sense lost the argument, simply by his continuing in a dialogue which is the dialectic process. Use of the dialectic can lead an opponent who begins from a thesis into a gradual change of position toward that of the anti-thesis.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
Post number 54 in this thread is predictable for those in what is here called "2P2P" from a knowledge of the dialectic mentioned briefly in I Timothy 6: 20-21 and seen as examples in Genesis 3: 1-6 and in John 8: 31-44.

The point of the arguments by "2P2P" is partly to promote and defend a theology which is not made very clear or explicit, as far as how it differs from the teachings of John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer and some others and partly the argument is to continue the argument by use of the dialectic. The dialectic is not easy to understand. Yet you can say that the dialectic is an argument against that which is Truth or Morality in scripture.


Hi and today it is a 1P and 1P because Israel has been set aside and today DISPENSATIONALISM REIGNS and means it is ONE BODY , the B O C !!

God today is not dealing with Israel as a NATION !!

dan p
 

Right Divider

Body part
Post number 54 in this thread is predictable for those in what is here called "2P2P" from a knowledge of the dialectic mentioned briefly in I Timothy 6: 20-21 and seen as examples in Genesis 3: 1-6 and in John 8: 31-44.
Every post by northwye is predictable as he is a here called know-it-all.

Your silly and lying attempts to FALSELY associate us with the likes of John Hagee is duly noted.
 

northwye

New member
Rather than call people who disagree with them bad names, why do not the followers of the supposed theology of "2P2P" explain how their theology is different from that of the founders of what was called dispensationalism? And use New Testament scripture in doing so. There is one prophecy in the Old Testament which is relevant to the statements in Hebrews 7: 22 and Hebrews 8: 6 that the New Covenant in Christ is a better covenant than the Old. This Old Testament prophecy is in Haggai 2: 9.

The "2P2P" statement that "Israel has been temporarily set aside" is not a statement found in the NT.

There are three verses in the NT which are most relevant to the issue of the Old Covenant, that is, Old Covenant Israel, being temporarily set side and later re-established.

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:" II Corinthians 3: 7

"How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9. For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory." II Corinthians 3: 8-9

"Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10: 9

Then, there are NT scriptures which support the doctrine that Christ did away with the Old Covenant without saying that it would be re-established later.

"But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." Galatians 4: 23-26

Galatians 4: 23-26 especially supports Hebrews 8: 6 that the New Covenant in Christ is a better covenant than the Old.

Jerusalem which now exists is the Old Covenant in Galatians 4: 25, and it is said to be in bondage. But that Jerusalem which is above, is Spiritual Jerusalem, is free and is the mother of us all, meaning it is the mother of all the elect.

"Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3. For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5. Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6. Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ," Philippians 3: 2-8 Again, this text supports the doctrine that the Old Covenant was inferior to the New Covenant in Christ.

Why would God want to re-establish the Old Covenant which was inferior ,to the New Covenant?

Here is another NT text relevant to the issue of whether God is going to re-establish the Old Covenant in some way.

Remember, saying that God will in the future save All Israel, interpreted by 2P2P to mean all Israel of the Bloodline, is a re-establishment of one important part of the Old Covenant, the physical bloodline. What about the temple, animal sacrifice and circumcision? Maybe 2P2P only claims the physical bloodline is re-established as part of the Old Covenant, yet who knows what their doctrine is on the re-establishment of
the rituals of the Old Covenant? They have not said as far as I know.

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Colossians 2" 16-17

The ceremonies of the Old Covenant were mere shadows of better things to come, and the Old Covenant itself was but a shadow of better things to come in Christ Jesus. "But the body is of Christ," where body of Christ is from σωμα του χριστου, soma tou Christou, is metaphoric in a way. It means that while the ceremonies of the Old Covenant were mere shadows, the substance is of Christ.

The Old Covenant was a shadow pointing to a Better Covenant which came later in Christ, and that New Covenant is the substance, the spiritual substance. Then, how could Christ bring back the shadows?

"The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts." Haggai 2: 9
 
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Eagles Wings

New member
Post number 54 in this thread is predictable for those in what is here called "2P2P" from a knowledge of the dialectic mentioned briefly in I Timothy 6: 20-21 and seen as examples in Genesis 3: 1-6 and in John 8: 31-44.

The point of the arguments by "2P2P" is partly to promote and defend a theology which is not made very clear or explicit, as far as how it differs from the teachings of John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer and some others and partly the argument is to continue the argument by use of the dialectic. The dialectic is not easy to understand. Yet you can say that the dialectic is an argument against that which is Truth or Morality in scripture.

If an opponent can be deceived into a continuing argument of bickering then he has in a sense lost the argument, simply by his continuing in a dialogue which is the dialectic process. Use of the dialectic can lead an opponent who begins from a thesis into a gradual change of position toward that of the anti-thesis.
I'm interested in your post. Your method seems to be to answer the question of a poster without actually addressing them personally. I could be wrong though because I've not read all your posts. If this is the case, are you trying to alleviate tension, or is tension always a part of the dialectic process?
 

northwye

New member
Eagle's Wings, the dialectic is something that is practiced by many people, including by those claiming to be Christians. The dialectic is a way of making an argument and works through dialogue. Whether the person using the dialectic is promoting and defending scripture or a set of false doctrines against the meanings of scripture, the dialectic is argument within a format. That format began to be established in ancient Greek philosophy before the time of Christ.

There is a text in the New Testament which, in the Greek, mentions the dialectic. This is I Timothy 6: 20-21.

"O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen"

The key part in Greek says "και αντιθεσεις της ψευδωνυμου γνωσεως,or "and anti-thesis of falsely called knowledge."

αντιθεσεις, or anti-thesis, is a technical term in the early Greek philosophy of the διαλεκτική, or dialectic, before the time of Christ.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectic

"Dialectic (also dialectics and the dialectical method), from Ancient Greek διαλεκτική, is a method of argument.....The word dialectic originated in ancient Greece, and was made popular by Plato in the Socratic dialogues."

"In classical philosophy, dialectic (Greek: διαλεκτική) is a form of reasoning based upon dialogue of arguments and counter-arguments, advocating propositions (theses) and counter-propositions (antitheses)."

"Aristotle said that it was the pre-Socratic philosopher Zeno of Elea who invented dialectic, of which the dialogues of Plato are the examples of the Socratic dialectical method."

There are specific tactics within the format of the dialectic, some more dishonest than others.

The dialectic can be used within an ongoing dialogue to gradually move an opponent away from his starting thesis toward the anti-thesis of the one defending or promoting that particular anti-thesis. Anti-thesis, in Greek, αντιθεσεις, is found in I Timothy 6: 20, as part of the διαλεκτική, or dialectic format, though the word dialectic does not appear there or elsewhere in the NT.

Christ did not teach by using the dialectic though he was subtle at times and taught by parables. The method which he used is the didactic. If you can avoid using the dialectic in discussing doctrine and stick to the didactic, you not only may avoid some of the pitfalls of the dialectic, but for those who ears to hear you can teach scripture better.
 

Danoh

New member
Your above description of the dialectic, northwye, is a description of the attempt of your every post, thus far.
 

Eagles Wings

New member
[MENTION=14377]northwye[/MENTION]

I am fascinated by and listen to a lot of debates on you tube. Maybe I'll try to figure out what method is being used and perhaps it is a combination, which you describe, including Socratic.

I am just learning about this topic and find it very important regarding evangelization.

Thanks for you informative post.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Hi and I like soft balls !!

Just read Ezek 36:24-38 !!

#1 iSRAEL WILL BE CLEANSED verse 25

32 , Israel given a NEW HEART in verse 26

#3, Israel will be given God's spirit in verse 27

#4, They will dwell in the LAND

#5AND SO ON AND ONNNNNNNNNNN

And Rom 11:26 confirms it !!

dan p



That is not when the Spirit came, and not when Rom 11:26 is about. It is not a prediction. It is the way 'all Israel' (the new one) comes about. It is not about the ethne, because God no longer does things with ethnes.
 

northwye

New member
Eagle's Wings

You might Google "Dean Gotcher and the dialectic." I just did so and got "About 1,900 results."

Here is one link found from that search: http://www.talkjesus.com/threads/god-doesnt-speak-into-the-dialectic-mind.44998/

"Dean Gotcher says "God cannot speak into the pre-flood, Tower of
Babel, Sodom and Gomorrah, dialectic mind..."

Gotcher teaches that "The dialectic is man thinking through his
feelings. This is the reason God flooded the world and will judge the
world again. "And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also
in the days of the Son of man." (Luke 17:26) Paul had it correct when
he said "Let God be true, but every man a liar." (Romans 3:4) The
dialectic paradigm rejects the word of God as the final authority. "

"Gotcher is saying that Luke 17: 26 shows that in the last time people will have
a mentality, a set of personality traits, a world view, and a carnal
or reprobate mind which is like that which existed in the days of
Noah. Dean Gotcher calls this mind the Pre-Flood, Tower of Babel,
Sodom and Gomarrah, dialectic mind.

He goes on to say "The key to dialectic thinking is the right to
question, mock, and
ridicule the traditional, didactic, patriarch authority paradigm. The
facilitator's agenda is to create and sustain such an environment."

How does the term - "facilitator" get into Gotcher's discussion of the dialectic?

"Facilitator" is a term used to describe the leader in a Carl Rogers sixties and seventies encounter group. Gotcher has studied how the dialectic has been developed by 20th century social engineers and social-personality psychologists. He is a scholar, yet also a preacher.
 
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