How the Gospel Works

[Ask Mr. Religion]

That is all so much gobble-dee-goop! Who can understand it?

It begins with a covenantal understanding of God's redemptive plan:

http://gospelpedlar.com/articles/Bible/cov_theo.html

versus this:

http://www.faithbibleonline.net/MiscDoctrine/DispCov.htm

AMR

 

[Cross Reference]

It begins with a covenantal understanding of God's redemptive plan:

http://gospelpedlar.com/articles/Bible/cov_theo.html

versus this:

http://www.faithbibleonline.net/MiscDoctrine/DispCov.htm

AMR

Like I wrote: Who can understand it that it should register as something meaningful, something to care about in the purpose of God for redeeming man?

 

[Tambora]

aBrakel:

Objection:
"There is no proof that Adam and Eve were saved by Christ. The very opposite appears to be true in Heb 11:4, where Abel is presented as the first believer, as well as in Matt 23:35 where he is presented as the first righteous man."

Answer:
First, Abel is indeed mentioned in these texts, but not as the first righteous man, neither as the first believer. Thus, Adam is no more excluded there than when Abraham is called the father of the faithful—as if that were to exclude all believers before him. Secondly, in these texts Abel is placed in contrast to the ungodly, since there is reference to the superiority of his sacrifice over Cain's and he was the first martyr. Thirdly, that Adam believed in the promised seed is proven...

(1) by virtue of the established covenant which could not exist without there being a partaker of this covenant. If Adam had not been a partaker of this covenant, it would have been without a partaker until Abel and Seth, who was born 130 years after Adam's creation. When God established a covenant with Abraham, he was himself included. Would God establish the covenant of grace, referring to the seed of the woman which would bruise the head of the serpent, and not include Adam and Eve in this covenant? Would this covenant then not be efficacious for so many years in the absence of partakers of this covenant? Would God have made announcement to Adam and Eve concerning the covenant of grace, and then have excluded them from it?

(2) It is evident from the enmity between man and the serpent, for wherever there is enmity with the devil there is peace with God.

(3) Eve immediately focused upon the promise after she bore Cain, saying, “I have gotten a man from the Lord” (Gen 4:1).

(4) Add to this the godly upbringing and faithful instruction of Adam's children, which was the means whereby Abel received faith.

AMR

I agree with the article that Adam & Eve were saved.

But #1 seems to conflict with what many Calvinists say.

Would God have made announcement to Adam and Eve concerning the covenant of grace, and then have excluded them from it?

Was not the covenant of grace (the seed of the woman) for all of mankind, as Eve was the mother of all living (Gen 3:20) ?

 

[Tambora]

Those who do not feel a control through believing in Sovereign God, or who feel bad about the revealed determinations of Sovereign God, will simply choose to not believe the word of Sovereign God.

That is how they cope.

What they believe is that they can trust the word of GOD.
That belief does not give them control of the word of GOD.
I think you confuse 'control' with 'zeal'.

 

[patrick jane]

It begins with a covenantal understanding of God's redemptive plan:

http://gospelpedlar.com/articles/Bible/cov_theo.html

versus this:

http://www.faithbibleonline.net/MiscDoctrine/DispCov.htm

AMR

The Dispensational understanding is far and above more accurate

 

[Cross Reference]

It begins with a covenantal understanding of God's redemptive plan.

AMR

In your own words: What was God's "convenential redemptive" plan other than "whosoever comes unto me I will in no wise cast out"?

 

[Nang]

The Dispensational understanding is far and above more accurate

Have you ever studied Covenant Theology, pj?

 

[musterion]

Catholics do not obey Jesus. Jesus says do not ___. Catholics do the do not.

We have to obey. I preach obedience to Christ. How do you get that is what Catholics do?

Jesus says call no one 'father'.

God says not to bow to statues.

You are like a Catholic in that you believe the three are distinct and together and separately call themselves one.

Your false gospel -- salvation someday, maybe, depending on a life of faith + works of obedience -- is exactly what Rome calls "the gospel."

 

[Lon]

LON, are you even listening to what you're saying?

You are dancing all around the point in order to justify asking people to believe something that more likely than not DOES NOT APPLY TO THEM ACCORDING TO TULIP.

Even if they don't know that, YOU know it. That knowledge has to inform you that, with at least a 50/50 chance, you're preaching a lie because, if reprobate, they cannot be saved by the very message you're telling them can save them!

No. They can only be saved by the Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 4:12 I have no idea if they be saved. Neither do you. All we know is that if they call upon the Name of the Lord, they will be. There is no lie in imploring them to do so. None. The gospel must be preached to all.

If they DO know about Limited Atonement, they're rightly going to be insulted and look at you like you are a fool, per my last post.

It isn't that hard. Just think, logically, for yourself. "If" God knows all things, then He knows already about what He has done and what it shall do. Arminians believe in a cross between what an Open Theist believes, and a Calvinist believes. Only Open Theology tries to separate completely from Calvinism. All others embrace God's exhaustive definite foreknowledge. If you do, it logically leads to these concepts. What I mean is this: Whoever believes God knows all things John 21:17 John 16:30. It is the end of this discussion if you believe these scriptures, "all" means all.

Christ cannot be trusted 100% if there's only a 50% chance He died to save me.

Incorrect. You are 'trying' to blame God if He is as Calvinists, and indeed, even Arminians say. It boils down to how much all means to you or me. It is simply that. It doesn't matter that it 'implies' anything. There are no excuses. Any of this, frankly, is not of faith and is a man wrestling with His God. To me, it is really a lot easier to focus this on a Calvinist like it is our fault. It is not. It is ONLY about the scriptures. You can and should argue about the scriptures. In them, we wrestle with God. We wrestle not with flesh and blood. I'm purposefully using a lot of scriptures because, between us, it is the only thing that matters. I have no worries about you and this disagreement 1) Because your love for the Savior is not questions 2) because your desire to be Biblical is evident 3) God is Sovereign over you. You are His responsibility Ephesians 2:10 Philippians 2:13 4) We share the gospel the same imploring men to be reconciled to God. That very call is either their Cornerstone, or Stone of stumbling. If men fall over the incredible love, sacrifice, and work of the Lord Jesus, it is on their own heads. I do cry for them, but I don't believe for a second any will perish because of ignorance or innocence. You don't either. We are more on page than you are acquiescing. You don't even need a Calvinist to think about and wrestle with these things. These are scriptures.

Is that a blasphemous thought? It sure is, and it's entirely the fault of the Calvinism that YOU are defending.

:nono: It is rather a 'faulty' drawn conclusion. Some Calvinists agree with you, but I believe they are drawing a shallow conclusion too.

The ONLY way the Gospel of the grace of God is truly Good News for ALL -- which you keep insisting it is -- is if the Gospel is completely decoupled from every last shred of Calvinism, which limits its scope to an imaginary "elect." And not just decoupled in preaching and doctrine but actually decoupled in BELIEF. In other words, by renouncing Calvinism and Reformed de-theology ENTIRELY.[/QUOTE]

Assume, for two seconds, God knows all things. He did what is the MOST effective. We ALL can ask why God doesn't and didn't ensure that all would be saved. To me 1) it is the same question, accusation, and objection. It is why there are universalists. They cannot believe any will not be saved and assume that God cannot hold them accountable. It is beyond their capability to imagine that they are not innocent. Please think about this some more, you aren't going the full route to universalism, but it is truly the same argument. It comes from the same place. 2) The lost are not your or my concern but privilege to pray for and take on some of the mind of God. You nor I own souls. Only God does. I have no accusation against God about what is not mine in the first place. To me, this whole conversation is a bit of a presumptuous discussion about business that isn't mine. My business is to plant or water. God is responsible for the rest. He says so 1 Corinthians 3:7 Read it. You and are, accordingly aren't anything. Read it. It says so. There is no 'blame a Calvinist.' :nono:

 

[glorydaz]

Yep. I've told the story before of how as a baby Christian my foolish first pastor infected me with 5 point Calvinism and all the doubts that go with it by encouraging me to read THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD by A.W. Pink, as if that would take care of questions he was totally not equipped to answer. I doubt there's a worse book you could give to a new Christian who already didn't have the Gospel explained all that clearly to him. It took years of agony before I finally got the wreckage of that blasphemy washed out of my mind for good.

So I can just imagine (actually I don't have to imagine, they're right here on TOL) how unbelievers hear the "Good News" when they also hear there's a better than 50% chance that they're reprobates and that Christ's blood wasn't shed for them (Limited Atonement), so they're on the way to the Lake of Fire no matter what they believe or don't believe:

"So what your saying is, it's good news IF I'm elect...but no one can know if they're elect...so there's better than even odds I could believe everything you're telling me but end up in Hell anyway and there's no way I can be 100% sure which bucket I'm in until after I'm dead, at which point my fate is just as sealed as it always was anyway.

"Because YOU don't know and I don't know if I'm one of God's reprobates, what you want me to believe is Good News is more likely than not a sentence of doom to Hell that I can't do anything about...and you know it.

"That is not good news."

You're correct. That's not "good news" at all. In fact, one might as well just go on living as they have been....without hope.

 

[glorydaz]

Calvinists and faith aloners misunderstand Paul about grace; see 2 Peter 3:16, 17, and James 2:14,17, 20, 22, and 24.

Grace is that no one has to give animal sacrifices anymore...animal sacrifices that have been given since the recorded better sacrifice of Abel.

No one has to sacrifice an animal anymore; but, we still have to obey God.

Grace is that God does not accept animal sacrifices anymore, but He will always accept a person after His own heart. A person after God's own heart is a person who is set on obeying anything that God says to do.

Oh shut up with the animal sacrifices bit. You don't have a clue of God's Truth.

 

[glorydaz]

To me, this whole conversation is a bit of a presumptuous discussion about business that isn't mine. My business is to plant or water. God is responsible for the rest. He says so 1 Corinthians 3:7 Read it. You and are, accordingly aren't anything. Read it. It says so. There is no 'blame a Calvinist.' :nono:

And yet, Paul also says we are not to hinder the Gospel or preach another Gospel...lest we be accursed. So what we plant most certainly matters.

 

[God's Truth]

Oh shut up with the animal sacrifices bit. You don't have a clue of God's Truth.

People have been giving animal sacrifices to God recorded since Abel.

The Gentiles were excluded and without God because they did not deal with their sin nature, which included animal sacrifices.

 

[God's Truth]

Your false gospel -- salvation someday, maybe, depending on a life of faith + works of obedience -- is exactly what Rome calls "the gospel."

I am saved now, and I will be saved still when I see Jesus.

I am in Jesus and he is in me because I eat of him everyday.

 

[Robert Pate]

I am saved now, and I will be saved still when I see Jesus.

I am in Jesus and he is in me because I eat of him everyday.

No one will be saved that is not justified by faith. To be justified by faith is to be justified by Christ, Romans 3:26.

 

[glorydaz]

People have been giving animal sacrifices to God recorded since Abel.

The Gentiles were excluded and without God because they did not deal with their sin nature, which included animal sacrifices.

"...their sin nature which included animal sacrifices." More mindless babbling. :nono:

 

[glorydaz]

..... because I eat of him everyday.

More mindless babbling by God's UNtruth. :nono:

 

[God's Truth]

More mindless babbling by God's UNtruth. :nono:

John 6:53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

Do you really want to say what you did about my speaking of eating Jesus?

 

[musterion]

I have no idea if they be saved. Neither do you.

Do you mean,

"I have no idea if they CAN be saved" ?

If so you're dead wrong. ALL, without exception, CAN be saved. That's what the Bible says. That's what grace means. All CAN be reconciled. But TULIP denies that flatly (Limited Atonement). You can't believe both, Lon. Pick one, but stop pretending both can be true. They can't.

All we know is that if they call upon the Name of the Lord, they will be.

Not if they're reprobates. The Blood was not shed for them (Limited Atonement) and they will receive no Irresistible Grace to quicken and believe. They have ABSOLUTELY NO HOPE.

There is no lie in imploring them to do so. None.

There is if they're reprobated. You're imploring them to do something God specifically intended they not do.

The gospel must be preached to all.

You can preach it, they can believe it, but it's absolutely fruitless if they're reprobated, and that by the God of Calvinism's decree.

Do you see the box you've trapped yourself in?

 

[God's Truth]

"...their sin nature which included animal sacrifices." More mindless babbling. :nono:

In their sin nature they didn't do what God said to do and start with CIRCUMCISION in the flesh.

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,