Let the elects be the elected
How the Gospel Refutes Calvinism, All Religions
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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Sonnet
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And Paul preached, primarily, to Gentiles where Christ was not know. What is your point?
Sonnet
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Christ dying for the sheep (in John 10) is part of a parable. Jesus is merely contrasting the actions of a good shepherd with those of bad shepherds (the Pharisees). If you read the end of the previous chapter (John 9) you will notice that the (once) blind man has been thrown out the temple. That, Jesus is saying, is bad shepherdry.
I'm not following the rest of your post. Eph 2 is about Gentiles and Jews.
John 10:15, "I lay down my life for the sheep." The sheep of Christ are those whom the Father draws to the Son. "You do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep." Notice: being a sheep enables you to become a believer, not vice versa. So the sheep for whom Christ dies are the ones chosen by the Father to give to the Son.
If you say that he died for every human being in the same way, then you have to define the nature of the atonement very differently than you would if you believed that Christ only died for those who actually believe. In the first case you would believe that the death of Christ did not actually save anybody; it only made all men savable. It did not actually remove God's punitive wrath from anyone, but instead created a place where people could come and find mercy -- IF they could accomplish their own new birth and bring themselves to faith without the irresistible grace of God.
For if Christ died for all men in the same way then he did not purchase regenerating grace for those who are saved. They must regenerate themselves and bring themselves to faith. Then and only then do they become partakers of the benefits of the cross.
In other words if you believe that Christ died for all men in the same way, then the benefits of the cross cannot include the mercy by which we are brought to faith, because then all men would be brought to faith, but they aren't. But if the mercy by which we are brought to faith (irresistible grace) is not part of what Christ purchased on the cross, then we are left to save ourselves from the bondage of sin, the hardness of heart, the blindness of corruption, and the wrath of God.
Sonnet
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And yet Christ goes on to say this to them (the Jewish opponents)
John 10:37-38
Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.
Jesus, despite their anger and hatred, still invites them to believe. You can't do so with integrity if it is the case that they CANNOT do so.
Since they are not his sheep then they are the sheep of another shepherd. Jesus says nothing to suggest that they cannot be his sheep. He does say this:
I am the gate - whoever enters through me will be saved. He will go in and find pasture.
It is not the Calvinist who limits the atonement. It is the Arminian, because he denies that the atoning death of Christ accomplishes what we most desperately need -- namely, salvation from the condition of deadness and hardness and blindness under the wrath of God. The Arminian limits the nature and value and effectiveness of the atonement so that he can say that it was accomplished even for those who die in unbelief and are condemned. In order to say that Christ died for all men in the same way, the Arminian must limit the atonement to a powerless opportunity for men to save themselves from their terrible plight of depravity.
Sonnet
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Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert - so must the Son of man be lifted up that everyone who believes may have eternal life.
If the bitten Israelites did not look to the serpent they would die...the serpent was lifted up even for those that may not have decided not to look.
John writes that Jesus' lifting up is just the same.
All are provided for. Not all will look (believe).
You claim God isn't effective nor have the power.
"Christ's sacrifice has purchased and provided for the effectual calling of the elect, with all the graces which insure their faith, repentance, justification, perseverance, and glorification. Now, since the sacrifice actually results in all these different consequences, they are all included in God's design. This view satisfies all those texts quoted against us." -R.L. Dabney
Sonnet
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That's Dabney's view and doesn't actually deal with the specifics of what I posted.
Providing salvation to the goats is what we're talking about. Don't steer me of course.
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Very good. The serpent was not lifted up for just "Some Certain Persons". The serpent was lifted up for all to see. Jesus provides salvation for the whole world, but only some of the world want to be saved.
Epoisses
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The bible defines the atonement as universal not me. We know all men won't experience Salvation so the sacrifice of Christ can be rejected by unbelief which is exactly what the bible says as well.
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Heb. 10:29
All mankind rejected and God rescued his children
Epoisses
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God rescued the world and his children believe it.
His children has to believe it. No other choices. It's impossible for them to reject
Sonnet
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Then why is the Calvinist John Piper confused by his theology?
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?117475-Did-Christ-die-for-all-men
He is a 7 point Calvinist. 5 point is not confusing at all cause its all backed by scriptures but 7 points is new to me and not familiar with it. Don't mix it with traditional Calvinism
The Gospel refutes all points of Calvinism.
We have been reconciled unto God by Jesus Christ. No one needs to be predestinated, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.
God is talking, but you are not listening.
According to Calvinism, Jesus is the Savior of the world