How old is the earth?

[The Graphite]

We know that in the time before Columbus the " scientific consensus" was that the world was flat!
Please provide evidence that the writers of the Bible believed the earth was flat. While you are at it provide evidence that our solar system is not the center of the universe.

Actually, while I am on your side, Delmar, that isn't entirely true. Non-Judeo-Christian people have known the world is round since before Christ. Ancient Greek mathematicians figured it out, using astronomy and geometry, and were surprisingly close to the accurate diameter of the earth. Now, granted, only some people knew this, and your average uneducated masses didn't. But learned men did know.

It's also true that this knowledge became less known through the Dark Ages, but even in the years leading up to Columbus' voyage, the debate was NOT whether the earth was round. The debate was how big the earth was. There were two camps, each side favoring a different area of science.

One camp (including Columbus) said the Earth was smaller than the Greeks said, because they observed meteorological phenomena and the movement of oceanic waters. Being a mariner, Columbus naturally favored this area of science. And that data indicated there was a continental land-mass only about 3,000 miles to the west, give or take, based on weather patterns and ocean currents. And everyone figured that had to be east Asia. Columbus wanted a trade route to Asia that wouldn't have to go around the southern tip of Africa.

The other camp used astronomy and geometry, and rightly knew the approximate size of the earth. And if that was the case (which it is), then Asia would be two or three times as far to the west as Columbus was claiming. Such a western trade route to Asia would have been utterly impossible.

Amusingly, both camps were partly right, of course. What neither of them counted on was a large, undiscovered continent to the west, between Europe and Asia.

Just want to put this forth to clarify the issue, and to dispel the myth that people have always thought the earth was flat before Columbus.


Now, all of that said, ancient peoples prior to the Greeks DID believe the Earth was flat. Except, of course, for the Hebrew people, who knew from their divinely-inspired scripture that the earth is, in fact, round. They had the advantage of many scientific understandings that no one else on Earth had at that time. Washing hands in running water rather than still water, the dangers of eating pork and shellfish, and many other things. The first book of the Tanakh ever written contains scientific information possessed by no one else on earth at the time, such as the fact that the earth hung in space, rather than sitting on the back of a tortoise or some such nonsense.

 

[eisenreich]

You are quessing! Read Luke 17 30 -36 and get back to me.

So you accuse him of just guessing and then list a passage that has nothing to do with the position of earth in the Universe..?

No we are in the center.

We are at the center of our observable universe just like a sailor on the open sea is at the center of his observable ocean. There is no edge there, just a horizon

The term modern geocentrism refers to a belief currently held by certain groups that the Earth is the center of the universe and does not move. The prime motivating factor for the modern belief, as opposed to the geocentrism of Ptolemy, is explicitly religious. Advocates generally argue that literal interpretations of certain Biblical passages demand that the Earth be properly described as being the center of the universe.

The consensus of scientists today is that
1. there is no center or otherwise special position in the universe,
2. from the standpoint of the laws of physics, there is no special linear velocity (however, the velocity of the cosmic microwave background radiation is sometimes considered special from the standpoint of a scientist)
3. there is a unique rotational velocity in which Newton’s laws of motion hold.

 

[Granite]

Delmar seriously thought Columbus's contemporaries believed the earth was flat.:doh:

Oh brother.

 

[Granite]

The Earth is the center of the spiritual and human universe if not the phyisical center of the universe. All the important action, meaning man's history and actions, is here on Earth. When you and I are long dead and buried the Bible will still be here.

This kind of humanistic hubris is moving but also incredibly, supremely arrogant and stupefying in its potential xenophobia.:down:

 

[The Graphite]

Delmar seriously thought Columbus's contemporaries believed the earth was flat.:doh:

Oh brother.

Don't be so hard on Del. It's a common mistaken, mostly perpetuated by our lousy public school systems.

 

[Granite]

Don't be so hard on Del. It's a common mistaken, mostly perpetuated by our lousy public school systems.

I'll keep that in mind next time he knocks public schools...

Washington Irving invented that myth, didn't he?

 

[The Graphite]

This kind of humanistic hubris is moving but also incredibly, supremely arrogant and stupefying in its potential xenophobia.:down:

How on EARTH (no pun intended) was Berean's statement "humanistic?" :rotfl:

It was the blatant opposite of humanism! :doh:

 

[Granite]

How on EARTH (no pun intended) was Berean's statement "humanistic?" :rotfl:

It was the blatant opposite of humanism! :doh:

If you think about it he was saying "man is the measure of all things" in so many words.

 

[The Graphite]

If you think about it he was saying "man is the measure of all things" in so many words.

He also said that when you and I are gone, the BIBLE will still be here. THAT is at the heart of things. Mankind without any divine involvement would be just as useless as all of creation without mankind. So, he was ultimately pointing out that GOD is the center of all things, and the only meaning we have is in relation to Him. Which is blatantly opposite of humanism.

 

[Granite]

He also said that when you and I are gone, the BIBLE will still be here. THAT is at the heart of things. Mankind without any divine involvement would be just as useless as all of creation without mankind. So, he was ultimately pointing out that GOD is the center of all things, and the only meaning we have is in relation to Him. Which is blatantly opposite of humanism.

(Shrug.)

We both took something different from what he said; nothing changes the fact that it has staggering, appalling implications.

The staying power of a book, of course, says nothing about its veracity.

 

[The Graphite]

(Shrug.)

We both took something different from what he said; nothing changes the fact that it has staggering, appalling implications.

The staying power of a book, of course, says nothing about its veracity.

Staggering, appalling implications to the fools of the world, yes.

 

[Granite]

Staggering, appalling implications to the fools of the world, yes.

Well that didn't take long, rookie: a few posts deep and you start to act like a self-righteous jerk. Nice job.

 

[The Graphite]

SELF-righteous? Absolutely not. Without God, I am exceedingly unrighteous. Wicked, abominable, destructive to myself and others.

Would I be a self-righteous jerk if I point out to a youthful gangmember that his actions and lifestyle have staggering, appalling implications? No. It's just a fact. There are staggering, appalling implications, to a fool like him, and he needs to hear it from someone who loves him more than he loves himself.

Just as I do toward you.


And as I've said before, I'm no rookie. This is simply a new name. I've been here on and off for years.

 

[Granite]

SELF-righteous? Absolutely not. Without God, I am exceedingly unrighteous. Wicked, abominable, destructive to myself and others.

Would I be a self-righteous jerk if I point out to a youthful gangmember that his actions and lifestyle have staggering, appalling implications? No. It's just a fact. There are staggering, appalling implications, to a fool like him, and he needs to hear it from someone who loves him more than he loves himself.

Just as I do toward you.


And as I've said before, I'm no rookie. This is simply a new name. I've been here on and off for years.

Denying your self-righteousness when you're called on acting like a self-righteous jerk is a sure sign that somebody needs the stuffing knocked out of their stuffed shirt.

I don't need the likes of you thinking you "love" me, so don't insult me with that crap. We clear?

 

[Delmar]

Delmar seriously thought Columbus's contemporaries believed the earth was flat.:doh:

Oh brother.

That is not what I said. there was a time, however, before the era of Columbus when it was assumed that the Earth was flat. It simply wasn't a point I wanted to spend a lot of time researching so I was granting his premise, that every body believed that, for a time.

 

[The Graphite]

Denying your self-righteousness when you're called on acting like a self-righteous jerk is a sure sign that somebody needs the stuffing knocked out of their stuffed shirt.

I don't need the likes of you thinking you "love" me, so don't insult me with that crap. We clear?

On the contrary, you need it now more than you ever have in your entire live.

Hey, we could have a Granite intervention!


"The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem, Granny!"

"We care about you, Gran!"

"We love you more than you love yourself!"

"There's always hope! ... Oo, is that a punch bowl over there? Oh, sweet! Ritz crackers!" arty:

 

[The Berean]

This kind of humanistic hubris is moving but also incredibly, supremely arrogant and stupefying in its potential xenophobia.:down:

Oh, come on Granite stop being such a drama queen. Your statement doesn't even make sense. If one believes we are alone in the universe why would that lead to zenophobia? Do you know of any other human civilizations besides the one on Earth? Even if there were why would you care what is happeneing on their world since it would be billions and billions of miles away and we probably could not detect it anyway.

 

[Granite]

On the contrary, you need it now more than you ever have in your entire live.

Hey, we could have a Granite intervention!


"The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem, Granny!"

"We care about you, Gran!"

"We love you more than you love yourself!"

"There's always hope! ... Oo, is that a punch bowl over there? Oh, sweet! Ritz crackers!" arty:

"Life," nitwit. I don't need any help. If I did the last group I'd turn to would be the kind of people I encounter on TOL. You don't know me, so quit acting like you do. In other words, sod off.

 

[Granite]

Oh, come on Granite stop being such a drama queen. Your statement doesn't even make sense. If one believes we are alone in the universe why would that lead to zenophobia? Do you know of any other human civilizations besides the one on Earth? Even if there were why would you care what is happeneing on their world since it would be billions and billions of miles away and we probably could not detect it anyway.

Sure it does. Suppose we encounter another civilization. Your attitude would instantly consider them inferior, as we are the center of "creation." I wasn't even talking human civilization, I was talking another form of intelligent life, period.

Your indifference is typical. Real Philistines, the way you guys strut around and grind things under your heels and simply don't give a damn.

 

[The Berean]

If you think about it he was saying "man is the measure of all things" in so many words.

Sorry Granite that is NOT what I was saying at all. Perhaps you can ask me what I meant instead of assuming an interpretation and telling me what I meant. :chuckle:. What I simple meant is that God placed man here on Earth. We didn't choose to be here and we didn't create the Earth. And if man is the "measure of all things" then we are not setting the standard very high are we. Or for those non-beleivers like youself, man has plenty of things to keep him busy and focused here on Earth.