Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Sonny boy, I know that is your opinion but you couldn't be more wrong.
ECT How is Paul's message different?
- Thread starter Clete
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Sonny boy, I know that is your opinion but you couldn't be more wrong.
Fine. I will play.
Old man Nicky, I know that the above is your opinion but you couldn't be more wrong.
You are contradicting yourself, confused old man, bible blender.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What about Apollos? At one time he was a believer "knowing only the baptism of John, and that baptism was associated with the gospel of the circumcision:
"And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John" (Acts 18:24-25).
But later, after Aquila and Priscilla had "expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly" (v.26) we see Paul saying that Apollos watered what he had planted and they are both "one":
"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one" (1 Cor.3:5-8).
Apollos was watering what Paul had planted because both were members of the Body of Christ and both were ministering to those in the Body of Christ. It is inconceivable that Apollos was not a member of the Body of Christ since Paul says that "he that planteth and he that watereth are one." In the following passage Paul speaks about that oneness:
"For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph. 2:14-16).
There is nothing here that even hints that the Jews who came to God under the gospel of Circumcision were not reconciled unto God in the Body of Christ.
Why did you misquote me, Shugart, when you posted me allegedly saying?:
This is what I said:
Why would you do that, Shugart?
This is what I said:
Why would you do that, Shugart?
Why did you misquote me, Shugart, when you posted me allegedly saying?:
This is what I said:
Why would you do that, Shugart?
musterion
Well-known member
David's sin was not imputed because adultery demanded death under the Law, but he was to be in the line that brought forth Christ. David was broken in repentance and God forgave him. Does that prove he had eternal security as a present possession, and knew it? No, it doesn't.
Give us another example of an Israelite under the O.T., from Moses onward, knowing he/she had eternal security (complete forgiveness of ALL sins and justification from ALL things) as a present possession.
We'll wait.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Completely off target to what was just addressed in the post prior, which proves you are incompetent in Scripture. I am not your "preterist."
Please deal with the exact passages mentioned. Repentance and the forgiveness of sins was preached going forward, as planned.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Shifting attention off of what rom 9 and 10 say does not answer the question. You think you know 11 but you don't. Just like Musteryion thinks s/he knows Acts 2 without knowing Lk 24. Thus they abuse it.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Was obedience a condition of salvation for the Jews who lived under the law?
Here is what the Lord Jesus said to them:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
You fail to understand that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham" (Ro.4:16).
Clete, surely you know by now that "grace" and "works" are mutually exclusive, don't you?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Are works required for salvation under the law? Peter didn't think so:
"God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are” (Acts 15:8-11).
Clete, you do know that "works" and "grace" are mutually exclusive, don't you?
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God's Truth
New member
The message is about repenting of sins.
God knowing their heart is about how they did good in life and now heard the message and repented of their sins.
Christ isn't even offering it to you until you do right.
Acts 10:35 but that in every nation those who fear Him and live good lives are acceptable to Him.
Acts 13:26 "Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.
Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
glorydaz
Well-known member
Interplanner
Well-known member
Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
In short, under law, obedience came before and as a condition of salvation but under grace, obedience comes after and as a result of salvation. It is quite different and entirely unique to Paul's ministry.
Not good to be quite this simplistic. It was post-exile Judaism that thought it was an earned thing. There are contrary examples before that, for ex., the exodus. Because the exodus had taken place, Israel was to have been inspired and motivated to good works, not the reverse. This is why Christ calls his gospel his 'exodus' in Lk 9. Israel's obedience was to honor what God had provided in the exodus and then in the entrance to the land. The gift proceeded the behavior.
In short, under law, obedience came before and as a condition of salvation but under grace, obedience comes after and as a result of salvation. It is quite different and entirely unique to Paul's ministry.
Not good to be quite this simplistic. It was post-exile Judaism that thought it was an earned thing. There are contrary examples before that, for ex., the exodus. Because the exodus had taken place, Israel was to have been inspired and motivated to good works, not the reverse. This is why Christ calls his gospel his 'exodus' in Lk 9. Israel's obedience was to honor what God had provided in the exodus and then in the entrance to the land. The gift proceeded the behavior.
:rotfl:Drat, the Big Wind has returned.
Shifting attention away from my question does not answer my question, IP. I understand Romans 9-10 just fine, but that's not what my question is about.
I'm asking you if you reject Romans 11.
It's a simple yes or no question, that requires either a yes or a no.
turbosixx
New member
If Paul received the gospel from Jesus and not man, where did he get water baptizing of believers?
turbosixx
New member
Your bias makes you see them different. I assure you, if Paul had been speaking to the same audience he would have accused them of his murder but this is what he says instead.
Acts 13:27 For those who live in Jerusalem and their rulers, because they did not recognize him nor understand the utterances of the prophets, which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. 28 And though they found in him no guilt worthy of death, they asked Pilate to have him executed.
According to you I am not lost. I believe 1 Cor. 15:1- so I'm good and my works or my sin has no effect on that.
Do you really think the actual truth needs to have words added to it?
turbosixx
New member
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
What was the good news about the kingdom?
Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again.
What was Paul proclaiming about the kingdom?
When did Jew and Gentile become one new body?
