ECT How is Paul's message different?

Dialogos

Well-known member
Yes, according to Paul.
Was Abraham justified by faith, yes or no?

Clete said:
This sort of stupidity really gets me angry.
This sounds like a personal issue, not a response to an argument.
Clete said:
All you are capable of is superficial games.
I don't see the clear testimony of scripture as superficial, why do you?

Clete said:
You're either stupid...
Ad Hominem

Clete said:
or you assume that I am.
I assume you are wrong here, for good reason.

Clete said:
As though I'm incapable of noticing the verses immediately preceding the verse I cited. This is not an issue about proof texts, which has a great deal to do with the fact that I rarely cite individual proof texts except where the context of the conversation helps to mitigate the sort of mindless response exemplified in your post.

Whether or not Abraham was justified before God in the same way you and I are justified before God, as Paul says, cuts to the very heart of your claim. Its not a "mindless response" to point this out.

Clete said:
If you had been the least bit intellectually honest you'd have simply ask a question related to verses 1-3.

I already know what verses 1-3 say and what they imply. If you did, then you wouldn't make the claim that justification by faith was only true of those saved by the gospel Paul preached.
Clete said:
But you, as with most all those who disagree with anything I say around here, aren't interested in understanding anything. You're interested in preaching to those who already disagree with me anyway.
Oh, I'm equally interested in preaching to those who agree with you as well.

:D

Clete said:
For the life of me, I can't figure out what sort of person finds it worth his while to spend the time it takes to post such mindlessness.
I'm the sort of person who doesn't consider biblical truth mindless.

Clete said:
Get a life...

And now the claws come out again.

:sigh:

Why do you get so cranky when other's challenge your theology, Clete? Could it be because you can't defend it?
 

Wick Stick

Well-known member
My reading of the Bible leads me to believe that the gospel taught by Paul and the twelve were identical.

To wit, they both preached reconciliation to God and unity with each other under a single Head - Christ.

They even use the same metaphors. Peter calls the believers "living stones" fitted together into a temple wherein God dwells, and where Christ is the "cornerstone" and "capstone." Paul adjures us, do we not know that "our body is the temple of the Holy Ghost?" Paul has us all as "members in particular" as part of a "body" of which the Head is Christ. Can you not see that these are the same thing?

John and Jesus preached the "kingdom at hand" and "very near to you" which "does not come with observation." Both condemned the Jewish temple as a seat of God's power, and Jesus named the people as "gods" and prayed for their unity to be as His unity with the Father. The martyr Stephen testifies that "God does not live in houses built by human hands."

Is Paul not the same? Luke cannot stop testifying in the Acts of Paul's mighty persuasions about the "kingdom of God." Paul likewise reiterates that the "kingdom is not food and drink, but righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost."

That's the summation of the matter. The gospel is reconciliation to God and Unity under a single Lord - Christ - in his kingdom. They all preach it. Paul's teaching against "works righteousness" or "righteousness by the law" are all part and parcel of the same. The greater point he makes is that the kingdom is within.

Jarrod
 

turbosixx

New member
If they did repent and be baptized for the remission of sins, they did receive the the gift of the Holy Ghost. The flip side would be if they didn't they wouldn't. What does that have to do with what we are talking about?

Is the Holy Spirit given under the old law or the new?
 

turbosixx

New member
At Pentecost (A Jewish Holy day), Peter preached a murder indictment to all the house of Israel (Acts 2:22-23, Acts 2:36), that they had murdered their Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, but that God hath raised Him up!

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Acts 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Acts 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Notice, their reaction!

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?


Peter told them what they must do for the remission of sins. They must REPENT (change their mind) about WHO Jesus Christ was and be identified (baptized) in water for the remission of sins.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Murder is death and raised up is resurrection. They were told Jesus was Lord and Christ and they believed it. They were baptized received the Holy Spirit and were added. That is the gospel of Christ.

Peter did not tell them "Christ died for our sins" as good news to them!

Just because the words "Jesus died for your sins" isn't in there makes it different? It's obviously not the old law and if it's not the gospel, what is it?

Maybe he did specifically tell them "he died for your sins".
2:40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!"

Isn't he gospel the power of God unto salvation? In the name of Jesus?
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
Murder is death and raised up is resurrection. They were told Jesus was Lord and Christ and they believed it. They were baptized received the Holy Spirit and were added. That is the gospel of Christ.



Just because the words "Jesus died for your sins" isn't in there makes it different? It's obviously not the old law and if it's not the gospel, what is it?

Maybe he did specifically tell them "he died for your sins".
2:40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!"

Isn't he gospel the power of God unto salvation? In the name of Jesus?

Paul wrote about that - Romans 1:16 KJV -
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Was Abraham justified by faith, yes or no?
yes Gen 15:6 then no Gen 17:10

Abram

1st covenant
promise
Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

blood shed
Gen 15:9 He said to him, "Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon."
Gen 15:10 And he brought him all these, cut them in half, and laid each half over against the other. But he did not cut the birds in half.

abram was asleep (faith only)
Gen 15:12 As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell on Abram. And behold, dreadful and great darkness fell upon him.

God confirmed the covenant
Gen 15:17 When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces


-------------
Gen 16:16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore Ishmael to Abram.
--------------

need 2nd covenant

promise


Gen 17:5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.
Gen 17:6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.

bloodshed and covenant confirmed each time the
work of circumcision is done.

Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
 

Nick M

Plymouth Colonist
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
yes Gen 15:6 then no Gen 17:10

9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.

The lost can't seem to wrap their head around it, even though Paul explicitly states not while circumcised for faith alone.
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Then...why Paul?

(Acts 9:15) But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Notice the Lord didn't tell Ananias anything about Paul preaching a different gospel to the Gentiles.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
(Acts 9:15) But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Notice the Lord didn't tell Ananias anything about Paul preaching a different gospel to the Gentiles.

True.

The gospel of Christ never changed one iota from its establishment.

LA
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.

The lost can't seem to wrap their head around it, even though Paul explicitly states not while circumcised for faith alone.

God went from faith alone to a covenant of circumcision with Abraham

then with Paul from the covenant of circumcision back to faith alone
 
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