ECT How is Paul's message different?

[Cross Reference]

Peter preached this to those Gentiles Acts 10:35 KJV.
Paul preached this Titus 3:5 KJV.
Peter preached that they shall be saved (future Acts 15:11 KJV) and "the grace" consistent with 1 Peter 1:10 KJV Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Paul preached that we "are saved" (1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV, Ephesians 2:5 KJV/"for by grace are ye saved through faith".

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Things that are different are NOT the same!

Yep. You walk that part out real well.

 

[heir]

Yep. You walk that part out real well.

I know you meant that as a dig, but I'll take it as a compliment.

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

Ephesians 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

Ephesians 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

 

[Clete]

Thanks for taking the time to type all this and I appreciate you working with me. I feel the same about seeing something clearly that others can’t see. I’m going to digest this and get back with you, but here is one thing that jumped out at me.


I get the feeling you didn't even look at Paul's sermon in Acts 13.
You said.


Paul's message is the same as Peter's.
16 Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, "Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen:

23 From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus,

This, I think, illustrates a major mistake most Christians make. Not just on dispensational issues but on every issue. They take individual passages and apply them as though they exist in a vacuum. The book of Acts is a historical account of the transition from one dispensation to another. In fact, the very existence of the book of Acts is an argument in favor of the idea that the dispensation changed at some point after Calvary because otherwise there would be no need for the book of Acts to begin with, at least not a doctrinal need for it. But Acts 13 was not written by itself. It is just a continuation of the story line and CANNOT be removed from that context without confusion.

As I've been reading and trying to figure out how to respond to this objection I keep coming around to the notion that I'd have to basically write a commentary of most of the book of Acts to really cover all the bases here but time just will not allow for such a thing and so I'm going to give you an answer that I really sort of hate to give you because it will be woefully incomplete and is likely to only create more questions than it answers and may perhaps be counterproductive to convincing you of anything. My hope is to convince you to at least look into the subject with more detail than is possible on a web forum.

So, here goes nothin'...

Once again, while I'm not going type it all out verbatim this time, I am, once again, leaning heavily on Bob Enyart's The Plot, a book I beg you to read for yourself...

In Acts 10 & 11 God informed the Twelve that the Gentiles were no longer "unclean" and were acceptable without the need to become proselyte Jews (i.e. be circumcised etc.). Next, in Acts 12 you have a 2nd murder of a follower of Christ which sort of bookends God's turning to the Gentiles. You have the murder of Stephen in Acts 8 by the religious leaders of Israel and then the murder of James in Acts 12 by the political leader of Israel. Then in Acts 13 & 14 God makes it clear to the nation itself, the people of Israel, that He has turned to the Gentiles.

Right off the bat Paul and Barnabas are separated for their ministry to the Gentiles (Acts 13:2)

Paul preached, at first, to both Gentiles (Acts 13:12) and to the Jews but the Jews simply rejected Paul's message which was quite different than anything that had come before.

[Paul] went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day...and said, "Men of Israel, and you who fear God, Listen:... From [King Davids] seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior----Jesus... sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to you the word of this salvation has been sent... (Acts 13:14, 16, 23, 26)​

All of which sounds fine but then Paul drops the following bomb on them...

and by [Jesus] everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses. Acts 13:39​

This truth cannot be found in the law of Moses itself, nor any of the Old Testament, nor the Gospels and not even in the book of Acts until Paul begins his ministry. And the Jews opposed the things preached by Paul and so Paul and Barnabas sort of got in the Jew's face and said fine! If you judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, we'll go to the Gentiles. (Acts 13:43 & 45)

In chapter 14 Paul preaches to everyone without distinction and many believed (Acts 14:1). Some even thought they were Zeus and Hermes! And you should note that there is no record of the Twelve having to deal with this sort of thing since they never went to the Gentiles but ministered only to the believers in/of Israel.

And finally, at the end of chapter 14 Paul emphasizes that God had turned to the Gentiles...

Now when they had come and gathered the church together, they reported all that God had done with them, and that He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles.​

Notice, "God had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles."!

The "door of faith" had been shut to all nations accept Israel prior to God turning to the Gentiles in Acts 9. Basically speaking, starting from Abraham, when he received the Covenant of Circumcision up until the conversion of Paul on the Damascus Road, salvation went to the Jews or to proselytes (i.e. you either had to be a Jew or become one). Everything prior to Acts 9 was about the Jews and the nation of Israel.

Going back to the gospels through Acts 2...

The death of Christ (Feast of Passover)
Christ in the grave (Feast of Unleavened Bread)
Christ's Resurrection (Feast of First Fruits)
The giving of the Holy Spirit (Feast of Weeks or Pentecost)​

All of these feast occurred ON THE ACTUAL DAY OF THE FEAST, precisely on time in direct fulfillment of prophecy. The next would have been the Feast of Trumpets and then the Day of Atonement followed by the Feast of Tabernacles. None of which were fulfilled as expected (some believe that Tabernacles was fulfilled with Christ's birth based on the wording of John 1:14). The question is why?

Acts 8 - 14 is why. With the stoning of Stephen, God began the process of casting away Israel and turning instead to the Gentiles.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

What is the Gospel of Grace other than the mechanics of being saved?

Most people may or not know how a car moves when they press the gas pedal. Do they need to know there is an engine running using fire/explosion to move a piston that moves a drive train to move the wheel in order for the car to move? They know by faith that if they press the gas pedal and the car is in Drive it will move.

We are saved by Grace. Many authors of the bible have mentioned that. Is not the mechanics of Grace through the Lord the same in anyway?

No! Not at all the same!

Jesus was asked by the rich young ruler how to be saved and Jesus answered him by telling him to follow the Law and when asked which laws, Jesus started listing off the Ten Commandments. No Christian I know would conceivably answer the same question that way today.

So while salvation has always relied on God's grace, access to that grace has had different requirements at different times. During the Dispensation of Law the gospel message was "Obey God and keep His commandments." Now, in the Dispensation of Grace, the gospel message is, "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

In short, under law, obedience came before and as a condition of salvation but under grace, obedience comes after and as a result of salvation. It is quite different and entirely unique to Paul's ministry.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[andyc]

This is true now because there are no longer any converts from under the previous dispensation.

That is to say that the callings of God are irrevocable. If you came to God under the Gospel of Circumcision then that where you remained. This was the case for the Twelve and their coverts and so for a time there were two groups, one saved under the Kingdom Gospel which was for Israel and one under the Gospel of Grace (everyone else).

How is it possible to be saved apart from grace?
There is no salvation outside of grace. By the law shall no flesh be justified.

Acts 4:12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.’

Romans 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

It's nothing but grace and faith for Jews and gentiles. The only one gospel.

I think part of the confusion has to do with this period of transition from one dispensation to the other. People have a difficult time absorbing the idea that there could be two separate bodies of believers with different rules existing at the same time. This, however, was clearly the case or else not only would have been no need to recruit Paul as a Apostle in the first place but there certainly wouldn't have been any need to separate their ministries as was done in Galatians chapter 2. If everyone had been under the same dispensational set up, as you suggest, the Jews would simply have been instructed to hang it up in regards to the Law - period, not just in regards to forcing the Gentiles to follow it.

Paul was chosen to be an apostle to the gentiles. Why he was chosen and called is with God's own mind and will, it's not for us to presuppose anything.

Paul was forgiven as a blasphemer, and therefore had a perfect revelation of just how far the grace of God would extend. Even lying, murdering, adulterous, fornicating, idolatrous gentiles.
If God's grace could extend to Paul, it could reach anyone. And so Paul's ministry was to present the the need for a messiah, and then present the messiah himself.
The gospel to the Jews was simply about how Israel had missed the the opportunity to embrace the messiah, and repent individually for rejecting him.

 

[Cross Reference]

No! Not at all the same!

Jesus was asked by the rich your ruler how to be saved and Jesus answered him by telling him to follow the Law and when asked which laws, He started listing off the Ten Commandments. Clete

He didn't ask that at all! He asked this:

". . . . Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" Matthew 19:16 (KJV)



Those in hell have eternal life unto eternal death. Thus we have the response from Jesus as being what it was.

 

[Clete]

I understand the Bible__ the whole Bible. I refuse to give more than my understanding that might require "jot and tittle" just to satisfy your taste for 'red meat' should you suspect a possibility of rebutting anyone you deem less ignorant than you with the hope of prevailing. You need to understand that that is an impossible task for you to undertake. Give it up.. You have already bit the dust on numerous occasions. The latest by Archduke re grace preaching.

Your personal opinions are completely meaningless to me.

 

[Clete]

Paul goes out of his way at the beginning of Romans to explain that there are none righteous, whether they under the law or not. All are under sin.

Therefore both need the righteousness of God that comes by faith. He went on to explain that some didn't attain to it because they sort it by works.

And so righteousness of faith is the ONLY message for salvation regardless of whether you see Peter James and John preaching it or not.

There is no difference. There is no Jew or gentile to those who are in Christ.

This post ignores the whole rest of the thread.

If there's no difference then there's no need for Paul in the first place. The Twelve had already been given the commission straight for Jesus' lips to go to the whole world, which they DID NOT DO.

Please read the rest of the thread.

 

[Cross Reference]

Your personal opinions are completely meaningless to me.

I perceive your life to be meaningless. That is my opinion as well.

 

[Clete]

He didn't ask that at all! He asked this:

". . . . Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" Matthew 19:16 (KJV)



Those in hell have eternal life unto eternal death. Thus we have the response from Jesus as being what it was.

So you're suggesting that Jesus told him to follow the commandment so he could live forever in Hell.

I perceive your life to be meaningless.

Stated so eloquently because I've done nothing at all but try to get you to make an argument instead of simply shooting your mouth off.
If you'll notice I've not even said whether I agree with your opinions or not but only that, by themselves, they are meaningless.


You're a fool.
Welcome to my ignore list.

:wave2:

 

[Cross Reference]

So you're suggesting that Jesus told him to follow the commandment so he could live forever in Hell.

You're a fool.
Welcome to my ignore list.

:wave2:

And you are a liar! Willfully so.

 

[andyc]

This post ignores the whole rest of the thread.

If there's no difference then there's no need for Paul in the first place. The Twelve had already been given the commission straight for Jesus' lips to go to the whole world, which they DID NOT DO.

Please read the rest of the thread.

I was tackling one erroneous statement in your OP. Paul made it clear that both Jews and gentiles were/are under sin. The law makes nothing righteous, and so both Jews and gentiles must be under faith, which is what appropriates grace.

Very simple point, and simply pointed out to show how your OP is pointless unless you address the obvious.

 

[Clete]

I was tackling one erroneous statement in your OP. Paul made it clear that both Jews and gentiles were/are under sin. The law makes nothing righteous, and so both Jews and gentiles must be under faith, which is what appropriates grace.

Very simple point, and simply pointed out to show how your OP is pointless unless you address the obvious.

If you wish to ignore the thread, why participate in it?

I'm not going to recreate the thread between you and I when its all right there for you to read.

 

[Nick M]

The way I understand it, it says "the" gospel not one gospel for Jews and one for Gentile. Same gospel just a different audience.

How can this be?

Acts 15

6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

Paul has the same thing. To the Jew first then the gentile. Both of them go to the Jew and gentile. Therefore, Galatians 2 is a lie or it is the message, not the audience. Your claim and Acts 15 are incompatible. I don't expect a legitimate reply to me or Clete. You don't even acknowledge what they say;

James

22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Paul

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

 

[Cross Reference]

How can this be?

Acts 15

6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

Paul has the same thing. To the Jew first then the gentile. Both of them go to the Jew and gentile. Therefore, Galatians 2 is a lie or it is the message, not the audience. Your claim and Acts 15 are incompatible. I don't expect a legitimate reply to me or Clete. You don't even acknowledge what they say;

James

22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Paul

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

And if you stepped out in faith and failed who/what would you blame?

 

[Nick M]

Jesus was asked by the rich young ruler how to be saved and Jesus answered him by telling him to follow the Law and when asked which laws, Jesus started listing off the Ten Commandments. No Christian I know would conceivably answer the same question that way today.

Resting in Him,
Clete

:think:

I find that those who claim to be red letter Christians are usually the furthest from. They stand to be seen by others.

 

[Nick M]

non answer

Let's try again.

The way I understand it, it says "the" gospel not one gospel for Jews and one for Gentile. Same gospel just a different audience.

How can this be?

Acts 15

6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

Paul has the same thing. To the Jew first then the gentile. Both of them go to the Jew and gentile. Therefore, Galatians 2 is a lie or it is the message, not the audience. Your claim and Acts 15 are incompatible. I don't expect a legitimate reply to me or Clete. You don't even acknowledge what they say;

James

22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Paul

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

 

[Cross Reference]

I was tackling one erroneous statement in your OP. Paul made it clear that both Jews and gentiles were/are under sin. The law makes nothing righteous, and so both Jews and gentiles must be under faith, which is what appropriates grace.

Very simple point, and simply pointed out to show how your OP is pointless unless you address the obvious.

I haven't read anything from him that was not error ridden; twisted to say/ask something else. Weird.

 

[Clete]

Turbosixx,

One further point on what is preached in Acts 13 by Paul being different than that preached by the Twelve. Compare what Paul says in verse 39 with what Peter says in Acts 10:35...

Paul:
Acts 13:38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Peter:
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.​

This is the central difference between the two gospel messages and it is also the key difference on either side of countless, seemingly unrelated doctrine debates that began in Paul's day (over circumcision) and continues to this day (over everything from water baptism to whether you have to go to church on a particular day of the week to tithing to just about you name it).

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[heir]

Yes, I understand circumcision to mean Jews.

The way I understand it, it says "the" gospel not one gospel for Jews and one for Gentile. Same gospel just a different audience.

You understand it wrong.

Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;


There are two gospels there.