ECT How is Paul's message different?

[turbosixx]

I just want to call attention to this point you made in your previous post.

The verse I cited in parenthesis, Mark 1:4 explcitly states that John the Baptist baptized people "for the remission of sins"...

Mark 1:4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.​

The point being that you very definitely could get your sins forgiven while under the law. The reason this is so is because God knew Christ's death would be the needed propitiation for those sins. Thus the author of Hebrews was teaching that it wasn't the blood of bulls but the blood of Christ which the bulls merely symbolized that allowed for the forgiveness of sins. Prior to the cross, however, those who died as faithful believers could not go directly to heaven to be with God. They went instead to what is called "Abraham's Bosom" (Luke 16:22). This is the same place that Christ went during the three days He was dead and separated from the Father. (Luke 23:43).

Just an interesting rabbit trail!

Resting in Him,
Clete

Mark said "baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins." You didn't highlight repentance possible because of a paradigm .

I only know what I read. "Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance." He makes no mention of forgiveness of sins.

It seems Paul didn't see John’s baptism as sufficient. When he finds out they hadn’t even heard of the Holy Spirit he questions their baptism. When his suspicions are confirmed he baptizes them again in the name of Jesus.

 

[oatmeal]

The epistles of Paul gives the most information about this age of grace.

It defines the great mystery and explains it.

It gives us the rules of heart and living in this age of grace.

No other books in God's word do that. Other epistles like Hebrews, James, John, Jude help fill that in but, Paul's epistles are the core of the age of grace.

The gospels do not contain the age of grace, for they are about the conception, birth, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and his ministry to the lost sheep of the house of Israel

 

[jamie]

• Jews are God’s people and everyone else is without God

Since Jesus was to be the Lamb of God I suspect both God and Jesus knew he would be rejected by the Jews and crucified by the Romans.

Jesus said he was sent not just to the Jews but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, i.e. all Hebrews.

 

[Clete]

Wow, awesome post. I wish I could explain myself as well as you do. I appreciate the time and effort you’ve put in working with me on this. I totally agree with the “doctrinal paradigm”. I’m sure you realize from my vantage point I see your paradigm as well and the more we converse the more I’m zeroing in on what I believe to be the divergence. I don’t see any problem text from my vantage either. It’s funny and sad at the same time that from the very same written word we have two different paradigms, but then again there are thousands out there.

I really liked your bullet point plot and of course mine is not the same. To understand my view of the NT plot, I need to go back a little further.

• Fall of man – Man separated from God – Messiah prophesied (reconciliation)
• God chooses a people – to give words to concerning the Messiah
• God makes covenant of promise with Abraham
• Jews are God’s people and everyone else is without God
• God adds the law given by Moses
• OT is a shadow of the Messiah and the NT
• Jesus announces to Israel he is the Messiah and brings eternal life
• Jews kill Jesus according to God’s plan
• Jesus’ sacrifice establishes his church/kingdom/new covenant reconciling man to God
• Apostles offer salvation to the Jews - believers are saved
• God chooses Saul to work with the Gentiles
• God shows the Jews the Gentiles are fellow heirs (Cornelius)
• Paul travels – believers are saved
• Christians are God’s people and everyone else is without God
• Then comes Judgment


I agree with the forest for the trees comment. That is exactly what I see. The trees being the Jews and the kingdom and the forest being man’s sin.

Your plot line is for the whole bible but isn't it interesting how similar it is to mine. The difference is quite small. It is precisely its smallness that makes its ability to resolve so many seemingly unrelated doctrinal issues so profound and compelling.

And I'm not sure you are using the term "problem texts" the same way I am. In your doctrinal paradigm (i.e. Acts 2 (or earlier) Dispensationalism or Covenant Theology), you are forced to have problem texts.

For example, your paradigm in and of itself does not suggest an intuitive answer to the question of when the rapture will occur, mine does. Your paradigm does not imply, in and of itself, an answer to the question, "Should Christians tithe?", mine does. Your paradigm does not suggest, in and of itself, whether or not we can lose our salvation, mine does. To answer such questions you are forced to read the New Testament and make a list of verses that seem to support one side and another list of verses that support the other. Which list becomes your problem texts depends not on your paradigm but merely upon which side of the debate you wish you side with.
This is why there are just as many Acts 2 Dispensationalists that believe that tithing is required as there are that don't. The paradigm itself gives no clue to which direction to go. Only Mid-Acts Dispensationalism gives you the answers to these questions on what is nearly an intuitive level. In other words, I don't even have to go through the trouble of researching it out and making a list of all the pertinent biblical material on the subject of tithing to know intuitively that I am not required to do it. It's an obvious question that almost answers itself. What's more, none of the passages that teach that tithing aught to be done mean anything other than what they say. I don't need to interpret them because they aren't problem texts, they're proof texts! They all mean exactly what they say. I just know who they are saying it to. My view of the big picture makes the details really, really easy.

You on the other hand, accept that everything that is in the New Testament is the same message, written to the same exact audience for the same reasons. You are therefore forced, by the nature of that paradigm to have problem texts. It's flatly unavoidable. Certain passages will need interpreting in order to make them agree with those passages that mean what they seem to mean.

So, if I, to give another example, say that works are not required for salvation, I, BECAUSE of my paradigm, can read Romans 4 and James 2 and see no need to reconcile anything. The fact that they say opposite things is EXPECTED in my paradigm. It would be a problem for me if they didn't! Thus both passages become proof texts for me. You, on the other hand, have to pick a side and make one of them say something more (or less) than a surface reading of the text would imply.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Mark said "baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins." You didn't highlight repentance possible because of a paradigm .

No, its because I was citing it in response to the idea that no one could be forgiven of sins before Calvary.

I only know what I read. "Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance." He makes no mention of forgiveness of sins.

That's because of the point Paul is making, not because John's baptism had nothing to do with forgiveness of sins. The text of scripture could not be more clear. John's baptism was about, and I quote, "the remission of sins".

It seems Paul didn't see John’s baptism as sufficient. When he finds out they hadn’t even heard of the Holy Spirit he questions their baptism. When his suspicions are confirmed he baptizes them again in the name of Jesus.

More proof that something had changed!

You make my arguments for me!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[turbosixx]

So, if I, to give another example, say that works are not required for salvation, I, BECAUSE of my paradigm, can read Romans 4 and James 2 and see no need to reconcile anything. The fact that they say opposite things is EXPECTED in my paradigm. It would be a problem for me if they didn't! Thus both passages become proof texts for me. You, on the other hand, have to pick a side and make one of them say something more (or less) than a surface reading of the text would imply.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I'm not sure if your looking for a reply, but I see James 2 and Romans 4 to be in total agreement. No need to pick one or the other.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Not rightly dividing the word of truth (denominationalism/one gospelism) is what causes the confusion!


1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

1 Corinthians 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

Guess you better get to followin' him then.

He strove to apprehend that by which he had been apprehended.

How many years now have you been to scared to roll the dice and move off the GO space?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Mark said "baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins." You didn't highlight repentance possible because of a paradigm .

I only know what I read. "Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance." He makes no mention of forgiveness of sins.

It seems Paul didn't see John’s baptism as sufficient. When he finds out they hadn’t even heard of the Holy Spirit he questions their baptism. When his suspicions are confirmed he baptizes them again in the name of Jesus.

Repentance was necessary at Johns baptism, but it was of the kind of turning from lying and stealing, as coming out of Egypt (the world)

The kind required to enter the Kingdom goes much deeper than that, from such many turn away.


Luk 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Luk 14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
Luk 14:35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.


2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

LA

 

[heir]

Guess you better get to followin' him then.

He strove to apprehend that by which he had been apprehended.

I'll get my reward (2 Timothy 4:8 KJV) at the judgment seat for building on the foundation a wise masterbuilder Paul laid (1 Corinthians 3:10-15 KJV).

I'm not ashamed of the testimony of our Lord nor of His prisoner Paul. I take it all in stride...

2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

2 Timothy 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

How many years now have you been to scared to roll the dice and move off the GO space?

How long will you resist the truth? 2 Timothy 3:8 KJV

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

I'll get my reward (2 Timothy 4:8 KJV) at the judgment seat for building on the foundation a wise masterbuilder Paul laid (1 Corinthians 3:10-15 KJV).

I'm not ashamed of the testimony of our Lord nor of His prisoner Paul. I take it all in stride...

2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

2 Timothy 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Problem is your still on square one.

Paul can't walk your walk.

Your walk is evident as non existent by the fruit of your lips.

You have stumbled at courage and strength which is virtue.

You have faith but no ability to receive the kingdom.

You are blind and cannot see afar off.

Without these things you have forgotten that you were purged from your old sins.

How long will you resist the truth? 2 Timothy 3:8 KJV

This truth?

Learn of me.

You have only heard about what the sons of God enjoy.

 

[heir]

Problem is your still on square one.

Paul can't walk your walk.

Your walk is evident as non existent by the fruit of your lips.

You have stumbled at courage and strength which is virtue.

You have faith but no ability to receive the kingdom.

You are blind and cannot see afar off.

Without these things you have forgotten that you were purged from your old sins.



This truth?

Learn of me.

You have only heard about what the sons of God enjoy.

:AMR:

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

:AMR:

Bummer.

If you had knowledge enough to know to listen to Peter you would know these things.

Alas, knowledge comes after virtue.

I actually stand in doubt of your faith as it rests in a false understanding of the wisdom given to Paul.

 

[glorydaz]

You are blind and cannot see afar off.

You are stupid and cannot see past the end of your own nose.

 

[glorydaz]

I actually stand in doubt of your faith as it rests in a false understanding of the wisdom given to Paul.

I actually have no doubt you are not in the faith.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

I actually have no doubt you are not in the faith.

No problem.

My faith is not in a false interpretation of WISDOM.

 

[glorydaz]

No problem.

My faith is not in a false interpretation of WISDOM.

If your faith is in WISDOM, you're in trouble. I don't care what "interpretation" you use.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

If your faith is in WISDOM, you're in trouble. I don't care what "interpretation" you use.

Yer outta yer league.

Learn of me.

 

[heir]

Bummer.

If you had knowledge enough to know to listen to Peter you would know these things.

I was never told to hold fast the form of sound words that I have heard of Peter, but Paul 2 Timothy 1:13 KJV. Peter was an apostle of the circumcision (Galatians 2:8 KJV. Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles. I magnify his office (Romans 11:13 KJV).

Alas, knowledge comes after virtue.

I actually stand in doubt of your faith as it rests in a false understanding of the wisdom given to Paul.

You sure blow a lot of hot air. Why don't you approve things that are excellent instead of being an offence (Philippians 1:9-10 KJV)?

 

[heir]

Learn of me.

Matthew 15:24 KJV, Romans 15:8 KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:16 KJV

 

[glorydaz]

Yer outta yer league.

Learn of me.

:rotfl: