ECT How is Paul's message different?

Nick M

Plymouth Colonist
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Was circumcision an option for Israel under Moses? If it was then why were they not physically circumcised while they walked with God after the Exodus before coming into the promised land?

24 And it came to pass on the way, at the encampment, that the Lord met him and sought to kill him. 25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone and cut off the foreskin of her son and cast it at Moses’ feet, and said, “Surely you are a husband of blood to me!” 26 So He let him go. Then she said, “You are a husband of blood!”—because of the circumcision.

If a Gentile could become a part of the circumcision, why couldn't a Jew become part of the uncircumcision? Romans 2:25 (KJV)

What does this do to the one gospel/two audiences claim?

I can't wait for this one to be "explained".
 

achduke

Active member
24 And it came to pass on the way, at the encampment, that the Lord met him and sought to kill him. 25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone and cut off the foreskin of her son and cast it at Moses’ feet, and said, “Surely you are a husband of blood to me!” 26 So He let him go. Then she said, “You are a husband of blood!”—because of the circumcision.



I can't wait for this one to be "explained".
This does not answer what I wrote. Was it necessary for the nation of Israel to be circumcised while they walked in the wilderness for 40 years?
 

Shasta

Well-known member
You said Paul claims Peter should be accursed. Paul is telling about what he did regarding Peter and his false gospel. Paul said after it let them be accursed. That is after Acts 15 that circumcision accepts Paul's gospel of faith alone.

Paul rebuked Peter, not for false doctrine (what he taught) but for hypocrisy: behaving inconsistently with what he taught. The Lord had already corrected Peter's views about the Gentiles' status in Acts 10.

And he (Peter) said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean (Acts 10:28).

Since there is no record of Peter teaching anything contrary to this is no basis for your claim that he taught false doctrine. However, after proclaiming publicly that that Jews and Gentiles were both sanctified and that there was no reason why they should not be in fellowship Peter changed his behavior when a group of "important" Jews showed up. This was a matter not of doctrine but of hypocrisy.

Paul's comment to Peter was as follows:

But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? (Galatians 2:14)

The HCSB puts it this way

But when I saw that they were deviating from the truth of the gospel...(Galatians 2:14 HCSB)

1. One thing Paul says is that Peter personally did not live the lifestyle of an observant Jew. What would this involve except such practices as: eating kosher, keeping temple ordinances, teaching circumcision and steering clear of Gentiles?

2. Paul also says that Peter "lived like a Gentile." It does not sound like Peter lived like a Jew in accordance with some special "Jewish (or Kingdom) Gospel"

3. However, when the Jews came Peter, fearing their disapproval, returned to the Jewish habits of life and separated himself from the Gentiles. (The Jewish community in those days exerted a lot of pressure on individual Jews to conform to group standards).

4. According to Paul, before the arrival of the Jewish party, Peter did not "compel" (or command) the Gentile believers to adopt a Jewish lifestyle...therefore he cannot be accused of teaching the false doctrine of the Judaeizers which posited that one could be saved through the performance of meritorious works (i.e., keeping the Jewish custom and ceremonial law).

5. In order for Paul to rebuke Peter at all they both would have needed to share a belief in a common standard of behavior. If Peter were obligated to follow different standards embedded in a separate "Jewish Gospel" then Paul would have rebuked him for acting like a Gentile BEFORE the Jews arrived not for acting like a Jew AFTERwards.

6. In this verse, a single standard is presented: THE truth of THE Gospel. One Gospel is presented that was apparently believed by both apostles. Paul's rebuke is predicated on the fact that they both held to this common teaching Peter's BEHAVIOR not his DOCTRINE was inconsistent with THE gospel.
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
Nick

:chuckle:

The Scripture you cited actually disproves Cletes point rather than substantiating it.

:duh:

Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,
12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. (Rom 4:9-13 NKJ)

Abraham was justified by faith alone, just like you and I are.

Thanks for proving my point:

:wave2:
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Do you suppose this explains the absence of saint john w since August? I have always said that LA would like to lure saint john up to an exceeding high cliff, and push him off.

Some people get under my skin because they are Christians and ought to know better, but I am so sorry for John W because he most certainly will burn in hell according to the Bible because of his own words.

John W is supported mainly by believers who have not the Holy Spirit , and who can not carry on a decent conversation because of their lack of grace in not knowing the Lord except in a historical manner.

Others are easily deceived by John W and Saul to Paul because they idolize knowledge which they do not realize is mostly a pack of lies.

LA
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
If nothing had changed then they all would have continued as they were but they didn't. Galatians 2 explicitly states that Paul went to the Gentiles (Paul makes it clear that his message was for everyone and made no distinction between Jew or Gentile) and the Twelve stayed in Jerusalem and ministered there. WHY OH WHY WOULD THEY HAVE DONE THAT IF NOTHING HAD CHANGED AND EVERYONE HAD THE SAME MESSAGE?

The real reason you may never know.

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

LA
 

achduke

Active member
Why would it not? It is in accordance with this;

Genesis 17

14 And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

So then again. How come Israel was not circumcised on the eighth day as they marched in the wilderness?
 

achduke

Active member
Old covenant.




Foreskin replacement is still a problem in 2015.




Nothing.
How about circumcision of the heart instead of physical circumcision.

From Strong's

Circumcision:

of Christians separated from the unclean multitude and truly consecrated to God
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
One of the twelve turned traitor and then killed himself, so there was a job opening. So... Paul. Apostle #12 in the place of Judas Iscariot.

I'm of the opinion that the 'drawing lots' for an apostleship in Acts was a mistake. The requirement for apostleship is a personal commission from Jesus, which Paul got and the other guy... not so much.

Jarrod

Jarrod,

I've heard a lot of people express this same sort of sentiment. The problem is that the text clearly shows two things.

1. That all authority had been given to Peter to act in Jesus' absence extending even to the forgiveness of sins. It was Peter who presided over the deliberation of choosing of Matthias in Acts 1:15-26


2. That the God endorsed the choosing of Mathias in Acts 2.

Acts 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they [the Twelve] were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.​
 

andyc

New member
How about circumcision of the heart instead of physical circumcision.

From Strong's

Circumcision:

of Christians separated from the unclean multitude and truly consecrated to God
That's what new covenant circumcision is. The heart by the Holy Spirit.

The mad nutcases havent yet figured out that Abraham's faith was personal, but circumcision was national. The nation of Israel had to be sanctified in order to recieve the messiah into the world.

And so circumcision was all about the sanctification of physical Israel, which was abolished in Christ.
 

Nick M

Plymouth Colonist
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Paul rebuked Peter, not for false doctrine (what he taught) but for hypocrisy: behaving inconsistently with what he taught.

Wrong. Just believe the text. If you were right, the Paul would be ok with putting gentiles under the law as long as Peter did the same.

14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?

Just so you know, there is a long time between Acts 9 and Acts 10.
 

Nick M

Plymouth Colonist
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
What exactly in Gal. 2 are you talking about?

You are worse than Hillary Clinton.

7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter

If this is about audience and not the message, then Acts 15 is wrong. Peter went to the Jew first, then the gentile. Paul went to the Jew first, then the gentile. If you ignored the content of faith alone vs faith plus works, you would still know Paul preached something different.
 
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