Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Your idea that the pronoun "we"refers to Israel despite the fact that his epistle was written to those in the Body of Christ is ridiculous.
How did His sheep get lost?
- Thread starter ttruscott
- Start date
Right Divider
Body part
Paul says NAY to being sheep... get over it.
Your silly ideas come from your head and not the Bible.
OZOS
Well-known member
It is blatantly obvious that Paul is saying that the Body of Christ are not sheep for slaughter, and that they are more than conquerors, because nothing can separate them from God. He is comparing them to sheep, not calling them sheep.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Paul quoted Psalm 44:22 to say that in this life the people of God face much infliction and at the time he quoted those words Christians faced the possibility of being martyred. Then he said, "Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him..', meaning that that "death" (v.38) will not separate us from the love of God.
So when Paul wrote, NAY he was not saying that what he just quoted did not apply to the Body of Christ.
So when Paul wrote, NAY he was not saying that what he just quoted did not apply to the Body of Christ.
Right Divider
Body part
He was saying that the body of Christ are NOT SHEEP.
OZOS
Well-known member
They are not "sheep", Paul is quoting the verse to compare their suffering to those of sheep. He is not calling them "sheep". The only group of people being called "sheep" were Israel. Paul is making an analogy that reflects their suffering by quoting the verse.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So even though the lord Jesus gave His life for those in the Body of Christ those in the Body are not his sheep?:
"I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep" (Jn.1011).
"I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep" (Jn.1011).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The god sheperd/sheepcomparasion found in the OTis an analogy and not to be taken literally. in the following passage in "bold" Paul applies this analogy to those in the Body of Christ:
"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Ro.8:36).
you are right that Paul is "comparing" those in the body to Sheep but that is the nature of an analogy. The same can be said about all the references to the Istraelites as sheep.
"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Ro.8:36).
you are right that Paul is "comparing" those in the body to Sheep but that is the nature of an analogy. The same can be said about all the references to the Istraelites as sheep.
OZOS
Well-known member
Here we know that Jesus is referencing Israel. While it is obviously true that Jesus gave His life for the whole world, there is nothing odd or wrong in Him speaking about a specific group of people. No more so than if Jesus said "I died for ewe" (pun intended).
OZOS
Well-known member
False. When comparing Israel to sheep, it pertains to them as a nation of people. The nation of Israel is not the Body of Christ. In Romans, Paul is just making an analogy, and could have used any animal to make it. Ewe are trying to squeeze a square peg in a round hole. It's silly.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So you admit that the Israelites were merely being "compared to sheep and were not really sheep. Here Paul is comparing those in the Body to sheep:
"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Ro.8:36).
So what's the difference? Both are speaking of "comparing"" a group of people to sheep.
"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Ro.8:36).
So what's the difference? Both are speaking of "comparing"" a group of people to sheep.
OZOS
Well-known member
Are you a bot? Are there people referred to as sheep today who don't believe in God?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What's your point? Do you deny that Paul quoted the following verse from the OT and applies it to those in the Body:
"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Ro.8:36).
At the time he quoted those words Christians faced the possibility of being martyred.
In your opinion why did Paul quote that verse from the OT?
"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Ro.8:36).
At the time he quoted those words Christians faced the possibility of being martyred.
In your opinion why did Paul quote that verse from the OT?
OZOS
Well-known member
Paul quoted the verse, because it was similar to their own experience, but he was not making an all encompassing declaration to them that they are "sheep" in the same context that Israel was declared "sheep" throughout God's word.
Seems like the disagreement here is pretty nearly a totally semantic one. At bottom we are discussing an analogy. Analogies are always imperfect. They apply in certain contexts and not in others. There are certain ways in which people can rightly be called sheep and there are ways in which it would completely inaccurate to refer to people as sheep.
Are we sheep for the slaughter? Well, yes and no. In the context in which Paul says "Nay!" obviously we are not but that doesn't mean that it would some sort of heresy to compare us to sheep in another context. In our flesh we are all, by are very nature, stupid sheep that wonder off into the wilderness and are hopelessly lost. In that sense we are definitely sheepish. Jesus was/is the lamb of God and we, as believers, died in Him. In that sense we are all sheep (lambs) for the slaughter, are we not? Indeed, Paul didn't only say that in Him we are more than conquerors, He also said "we also are weak in Him" (2 Corinthians 13:4).
So, it really just depends on what point you're trying to make. We must always endeavor to remain on the same page with one another otherwise confusion and unnecessary division will result.
Clete
Are we sheep for the slaughter? Well, yes and no. In the context in which Paul says "Nay!" obviously we are not but that doesn't mean that it would some sort of heresy to compare us to sheep in another context. In our flesh we are all, by are very nature, stupid sheep that wonder off into the wilderness and are hopelessly lost. In that sense we are definitely sheepish. Jesus was/is the lamb of God and we, as believers, died in Him. In that sense we are all sheep (lambs) for the slaughter, are we not? Indeed, Paul didn't only say that in Him we are more than conquerors, He also said "we also are weak in Him" (2 Corinthians 13:4).
So, it really just depends on what point you're trying to make. We must always endeavor to remain on the same page with one another otherwise confusion and unnecessary division will result.
Clete
OZOS
Well-known member
I'm generally in agreement with this. Good sound advice.
I would say that calling Jesus the lamb of God carries a greater significance than a mother calling her child "my little lamb". I think that is the case here with Israel being referred to as sheep, in comparison to Paul's intent.
Right Divider
Body part
You continue to confuse WHO the body of Christ is.
John was one of the members of the nation of Israel, God's sheep. The "good shepherd" is in Christ's relationship to Israel.
You are a confused person that likes to try to blur the scripture into a mess.
Right Divider
Body part
Israel are the only people that God calls His sheep.
Paul NEVER calls the body of Christ sheep for a reason.
Christ called Himself the Son of Man more than any other title.
Paul never ONCE uses that term to refer to Christ.
You cannot seem to understand these things because you have a prior commitment to forcing everything into your fairy story that all is the same, even when it's not.
Right Divider
Body part
The problem that I have is that the Christian world tends to fixate on Christ during His earthly ministry and cannot see that His LATER ministry to and through Paul is quite different and is the doctrine for today. This leads to lots of false doctrine for the body of Christ, like: water baptism, law keeping, tithing, etc.. Though much of that same doctrine was perfectly valid for Israel and will be valid doctrine for that nation in the future.
Believing that the body of Christ are "God's sheep" reinforces this confusion.
I suppose that it could be used to reinforce it but it doesn't seem like it has to do so nor that it's necessary to be dogmatically apposed to the modern use of sheep as an analogy no matter the context or purpose.