How did His sheep get lost?

[Jerry Shugart]

Clete, thanks for your comments and I believe you are correct in what you say.

But let us return to the subject of this thread:

How did His sheep get lost?​

It is impossible that the sheep spoken of in the following passage by the Lord Jesus will ever get lost;

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:27-28).

 

[OZOS]

Clete, thanks for your comments and I believe you are correct in what you say.

But let us return to the subject of this thread:

How did His sheep get lost?​

It is impossible that the sheep spoken of in the following passage by the Lord Jesus will ever get lost;

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:27-28).

The sheep (Israel) who do not believe can go astray or get "lost", the sheep who did believe can never be "lost".

Paul refers to the lost (sheep), when speaking of unbelieving Israel in 2 Cor 4:3-4

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

2 Corinthians 4;3-4 says nothing about "sheep."

In your opinion what is the "the glorious gospel of Christ" spoken of in the verse?

 

[OZOS]

2 Corinthians 4;3-4 says nothing about "sheep."

In your opinion what is the "the glorious gospel of Christ" spoken of in the verse?

It does not say "sheep", you are correct, but Paul is speaking about Israel, and only Israel has lost sheep.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What evidence can you give that the verse is speaking about Israel?

Are there not people who are not Israelites who are "lost"?

 

[OZOS]

What evidence can you give that the verse is speaking about Israel?

Are there not people who are not Israelites who are "lost"?

"Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." 2 Cor 3:12-4:4

In order to be lost, you must first belong.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So are you saying that the Jews who were saved could lose their salvation?

 

[ttruscott]

Don't be a one verse cherry-picker all of the time JS.

Is cherry picker the new term to deny that a verse can be interpreted as against your view?

 

[Right Divider]

Is cherry picker the new term to deny that a verse can be interpreted as against your view?

Do you read any of the posts where I try to show you something?

Are you so entrenched in your tradition that actually understanding the scripture is too much of a bother for you?

 

[OZOS]

So are you saying that the Jews who were saved could lose their salvation?

Nope. Do you know what salvation is?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

you said:

In order to be lost, you must first belong.

So what do you mean when you speaking of belonging?

 

[OZOS]

you said:

In order to be lost, you must first belong.

So what do you mean when you speaking of belonging?

Israel was a chosen nation, by God. They were His. He gave them the Law, promises, covenants, etc., but they often went astray and were lost. The Gentiles, on the other hand...

"That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world"

 

[ttruscott]

Do you read any of the posts where I try to show you something?

Are you so entrenched in your tradition that actually understanding the scripture is too much of a bother for you?

I've studied the writing of folk with your pov since the mid 1970s. I have discounted them as based upon secular interpretations, not the Spirit. Yet still, the questions I bring up are never discussed nor are the interpretations of the verses I use for my pov ever discussed...you seem to be facing you own charges.

The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the meaning of a verse from the verse without any input from their mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas is on the order of Paul's conversion as a bright light and hearing GOD's voice. Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the verse into previously accepted definitions.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Ozos, i asked you what you mean by belonging. In answer you said:

Israel was a chosen nation, by God. They were His. He gave them the Law, promises, covenants, etc., but they often went astray and were lost.

However, the verse you quoted which speaks of being lost (2 Cor.4:3) is speaking about indivuals and not the nation of Israel.

So please tell me what "belonging" means in regard to the individual Jew.

 

[Right Divider]

I've studied the writing of folk with your pov since the mid 1970s. I have discounted them as based upon secular interpretations, not the Spirit.

Your arrogance is duly noted.

Yet still, the questions I bring up are never discussed nor are the interpretations of the verses I use for my pov ever discussed...you seem to be facing you own charges.

The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the meaning of a verse from the verse without any input from their mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas is on the order of Paul's conversion as a bright light and hearing GOD's voice. Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the verse into previously accepted definitions.

Utter nonsense.

You've not addressed a single thing that I've shown you and continue to believe your view regardless of the scriptural opposition to it.

Again let me show you that Peter was writing to the SCATTERED SHEEP called ISRAEL.

1Pe 1:1 KJV Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

1Pe 2:11-12 KJV Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; (12) Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Please ADDRESS THE SCRITPURE instead of just expressing your condescension of "mine is the Spiritual understanding and yours is not" nonsense.

If you cannot see the YOU (Israel), THEY (Gentiles) distinction in that passage, you need to get your "spirit" checked.

 

[OZOS]

Ozos, i asked you what you mean by belonging. In answer you said:

Israel was a chosen nation, by God. They were His. He gave them the Law, promises, covenants, etc., but they often went astray and were lost.

However, the verse you quoted which speaks of being lost (2 Cor.4:3) is speaking about indivuals and not the nation of Israel.

So please tell me what "belonging" means in regard to the individual Jew.

2 Cor 4:3 is speaking about those Jews who who trusted in the Law, rather than trusting in God. They are lost.

You really are a complete moron, who just likes to argue.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Evidently you can't tell the difference between "individuals" and "nations."

 

[OZOS]

Evidently you can't tell the difference between "individuals" and "nations."

I can, a nation is made up of individuals, you moron.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Was the whole nation (every individual Jew) "lost" in this passage you quoted?:

" But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Cor 4:3-40.

Were the Twelve Apostles lost.

 

[OZOS]

Was the whole nation (every individual Jew) "lost" in this passage you quoted?:

" But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Cor 4:3-40.

Were the Twelve Apostles lost.

No, nor did I imply that the entire nation is lost. Jesus came for the lost sheep, which should tell you that not all of them were lost.

Judas was lost. Judas chose to remain lost.