How can God resurrect us if we do not have an immortal soul?

[clefty]

fixed it for ya




you are a humanist \ evolutionist so you don't understand the bible

God gave us a spirit

Gen 2:7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.


Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.


soulsG5590

ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit,


God gave us a spirit that continues on after death

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me

Revelations also NOT A DOCUMENTARY but vision...no matter how often you repeat the same LIE

Man was NOT created immortal but it was necessary he eat from the tree of life...

Is why he was denied access to it so that he NOT live forever after he disobeyed...

 

[clefty]

you do not understand the bible,there is physical death & there is also spiritual death .


Luk 9:60 And Jesus said to him, “Leave the dead to bury their own dead. But as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God.

None of this has anything to do with spirits floating about (or stuck under the altar conscious of nothing but vengeance for how they died) after the first physical death...before His return...that great day of the Lord...

 

[clefty]

we have scoffers who can't worship God .


Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

So you cant worship until you are dead in spiritville?

Happily and gratefully the living have spirits too and worship in spirit and truth...

 

[clefty]

True. And, as we see here, John left his body in prison, while the Lord took him in spirit to heaven's door to bear witness of what was there. And there are the 24 elders worshiping the One who sat on the throne.

Revelation 4:1-2 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.​

Revelation 4:10-11 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.​

John wasn’t killed to have this vision...

The scoffers don't believe in spiritual beings, I guess.

Actually just not spirits who were first and only flesh...that became spirits because they were dead

The prohibition to spirit talking (something pagans believe in) is the same as for idols...NOT prohibited because the idols are REAL or the gods they represent are actual...but because idols are false not real...dont exist except in the excited imaginations of the disobedient unbeliever

Same with spirits...they are not real but false...dont exist except in the excited imaginations of the disobedient...unbeliever

 

[iouae]

fixed it for ya

you are doing a great terrible job.

Fixed it back.

you are a humanist \ evolutionist so you don't understand the bible

And you are late to this thread. Clefty and I are neither.

God gave us a spirit

ruach/pneuma = breath = O2

Gen 2:7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

Nothing but O2/air here. Move on.

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.

Yes they were all squashed under one altar, crying out for revenge, all thousands of them. Sounds more like hell than heaven, right? Why? Because it is a metaphor, as in Abel's blood crying out from the ground for revenge, not literal.

soulsG5590

ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit,

And the very first place where "soul" is used, it is used of animals, and they BECAME one, did not have one, just as Adam BECAME a living soul/being, did not have one. The "psuche" he has is air/breath which animates material beings.

God gave us a spirit that continues on after death

Are you just reminding yourself here, that this is what the whole debate is about?

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me

Probably parable, or the day of judgment, where rich man is resurrected to see the lake of fire/lava flow approaching and is about to be burnt UP, not burnt forever.

 

[iouae]

John wasn’t killed to have this vision by the Spirit...

Glorydaz had quoted...
Revelation 4:1-2 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

If we have a spirit, or are a spirit, why are we not always in the spirit as John was here, for a moment, transported into the future, seeing things for a while as if he were a spirit? We will in future be spirit, as John was then. And when he was spirit then, he was not material.

When Jesus materialised, He was not spirit, but mortal, and then He would disappear, and become spirit. He was not both at once.

 

[iouae]

...worship in spirit and truth...

This is a completely different spirit we are speaking of here when we worship in spirit and truth. This is the Holy Spirit. This is sent from heaven to change our thinking, so that we produce love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, meekness etc. or the fruit of the spirit.

The spirit of God we have in different measures at different times, so we can be full, or our lamps can go out because we are lacking etc.

 

[iouae]

you do not understand the bible,there is physical death & there is also spiritual death

You clearly don't understand simile and metaphor.

Luk 9:60 And Jesus said to him, “Leave the dead to bury their own dead. But as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”

METAPHOR

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

METAPHOR

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God.

LITERAL (they had been dead, now are resurrected to hear sentence passed against them)

Way 2 go - you had better get a grip on simile, metaphor, parable, symbolism - these are God's favourite figures of speech. These are used a lot in the Bible.

 

[clefty]

you are doing a great terrible job.

Fixed it back.



And you are late to this thread. Clefty and I are neither.


ruach/pneuma = breath = O2


Nothing but O2/air here. Move on.



Yes they were all squashed under one altar, crying out for revenge, all thousands of them. Sounds more like hell than heaven, right? Why? Because it is a metaphor, as in Abel's blood crying out from the ground for revenge, not literal.



And the very first place where "soul" is used, it is used of animals, and they BECAME one, did not have one, just as Adam BECAME a living soul/being, did not have one. The "psuche" he has is air/breath which animates material beings.




Are you just reminding yourself here, that this is what the whole debate is about?



Probably parable,or the day of judgment, where rich man is resurrected to see the lake of fire/lava flow approaching and is about to be burnt UP, not burnt forever.

Rediscovering the Parables by Joachim Jeremias, page 145
To understand the parable in detail and as a whole, we have to recognize that the first part derives from well-known folk-material concerned with the reversal of fortune in the after-life. This is the Egyptian folk-tale of the journey of Si-Osiris and his father Setme Chamois to the underworld; it ends with the words: ‘He who has been good on earth will be blessed in the kingdom of the dead; and he who has been evil on earth will suffer in the kingdom of the dead.’ Alexandrian Jews brought this story to Palestine, where it became very popular as the story of the poor scholar and the rich tax-collector Bar Ma’jan

http://lhim.org/blog/2007/11/30/the-rich-man-lazarus/

Hmmm...Lazarus gone to heaven just for being poor...what’s not to like?

No wonder it’s so popular...

 

[iouae]

Hmmm...Lazarus gone to heaven just for being poor...what’s not to like?

No wonder it’s so popular...

Good one!

And God really does like the poor.

Blessed are the poor in spirit.

This means "in attitude" or having the bearing of a poor man, meaning needy.

This parable/actual event illustrates the two different ATTITUDES or spirits...

Luk 18:10
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Nice to see you are still up Clefty

 

[meshak]

Hmmm...Lazarus gone to heaven just for being poor...what’s not to like?

No wonder it’s so popular...

Jesus is for oppressed people not for powerful ones.

 

[clefty]

Good one!

And God really does like the poor.

sadly this true reason for the parable was hijacked for use as an afterlife documentary

Blessed are the poor in spirit.

This means "in attitude" or having the bearing of a poor man, meaning needy.

This parable/actual event illustrates the two different ATTITUDES or spirits...

Luk 18:10
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

but even poor people exalt their status as poor deserving heaven for that alone

Nice to see you are still up Clefty

but not for long...

hope you are well

 

[clefty]

Jesus is for oppressed people not for powerful ones.

He is for those powerful ones too...sadly often too oppressed themselves to receive Him...

 

[iouae]

Jesus is for oppressed people not for powerful ones.

Hi Meshak

I have never met a person powerful enough to resurrect himself

 

[iouae]

sadly this true reason for the parable was hijacked for use as an afterlife documentary

but even poor people exalt their status as poor deserving heaven for that alone

but not for long...

hope you are well

The parable sounds quite unbiblical, to have a righteous man begging crumbs under a rich man's table. So thanks for the source you gave for this parable.

It even goes agains the principle of Psa 37:25
I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.

I am well, and you?

 

[clefty]

The parable sounds quite unbiblical, to have a righteous man begging crumbs under a rich man's table. So thanks for the source you gave for this parable.

the latent covetous greed of this story is why it is so popular...that the rich end up in hell while the poor go to heaven...He said the poor we will always have but never will they go to heaven for just being poor.

Satan uses many tools within tools and to counterfeits true tools...

The deception is two fold indeed...hard to say which is worse that people use this ancient Marxist folktale to vindicate the poor for nothing else than being poor or to try and use it to prove eternal Hell...

What was the point of Yahushua using it? FORGIVENESS...not just to provoke the rich Pharisees eavesdropping getting triggered...

Forgiveness is the point hammered home as He turns to the disciples after its telling and continues with “it is IMPOSSIBLE that no offenses should come but woe to him through whom they do come” and then

Take heed if your brother sins against you rebuke him and IF HE REPENTS...FORGIVE even up to seven times a day...lol

What is the TRUE moral HE TAUGHT with it?...the rich man sinned and yet Lazarus could have FORGIVEN the man and the rich man SHOULD HAVE REPENTED.

Yahushua has just stolen the goods back from a story long popular for its “first shall be last last shall be first” moral and DESTROYED it with instructions to FORGIVE EACH OTHER as offenses are IMPOSSIBLE...

It even goes agains the principle of Psa 37:25
I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.

yes the TORAH made many provisions for the poor, DEBT FORGIVENESS namely...how abundant a life is that?...add to that NO USURY...

Gentiles are brothers now also protected by TORAH and not to be charged and forgiven debt...sevens in the seventy given...(average age 70)...every seven years...”forgive us our debt as we forgive our debtors”...the greek word is for financial debt not just sin

I am well, and you?

steaming and upset that christians believe the Torah is not applicable to them but abolished and done away with...just for jews...and that He did NOT make one new creation from the jew and gentile...His people Israel...and so we live miserably in debt and charged interest...but thanks for asking..lol

Speaking of interest...this might be of another sort...

http://askelm.com/doctrine/d030602.htm

Much out there about this little folk tale SATAN has misused...

 

[iouae]

steaming and upset that christians believe the Torah is not applicable to them but abolished and done away with...just for jews...and that He did NOT make one new creation from the jew and gentile...His people Israel...and so we live miserably in debt and charged interest...but thanks for asking..lol

Speaking of interest...this might be of another sort...

http://askelm.com/doctrine/d030602.htm

Much out there about this little folk tale SATAN has misused...

I enjoyed that article thanks.

But Clefty, you cannot let a little thing get you "steaming and upset that christians believe the Torah is not applicable to them but abolished and done away with".


Imagine Clefty, believing in a God who torments people forever, just because they lacked the faith to believe He is, and that He is a rewarder of them who diligently seek Him?

Imagine Clefty, believing that a God who does this eternal punishing, is a "good" God. The folks in hell would love a little waterboarding, just to relieve them of the fires of hell. But the majority of good folks on this forum believe their "good" God, is so petty, so vengeful, so miffed and peeved at these unbelievers, that He hates them so much He is prepared to punish them for all eternity, with no chance of reprieve? Then give thanks that you are among the tiny fraction of Christians who has the truth on this hideous doctrine of hell.

And the horrible doctrine of hell, starts with the horrible doctrine of an immortal soul, or spirit or something which survives death.

That is why ALL truth is important, because one truth unlocks another truth, and one error leads to another doctrinal error, then to another.

Another huge doctrinal error is the belief that Paul abolishes all OT law, including the Sabbath. Now that simple untruth takes one into a spiritual mangrove swamp of ugly things.

 

[clefty]

I enjoyed that article thanks.

plenty more where that comes from...Yah bless this tool the innernutz...to do Your work as the printing press did...

But Clefty, you cannot let a little thing get you "steaming and upset that christians believe the Torah is not applicable to them but abolished and done away with".

oh yes I can...precedent was set when He physically threw out the money changers from temple...ha

But seriously to see how Satan has enslaved humanity through this teaching that the Torah does not apply to gentiles and used financial tyranny as his boot to crush even the “littlest of these” makes me reach for my sword...scripture...the Word which still cuts off ears not used...lol

Imagine Clefty, believing in a God who torments people forever, just because they lacked the faith to believe He is, and that He is a rewarder of them who diligently seek Him?

Imagine Clefty, believing that a God who does this eternal punishing, is a "good" God. The folks in hell would love a little waterboarding, just to relieve them of the fires of hell. But the majority of good folks on this forum believe their "good" God, is so petty, so vengeful, so miffed and peeved at these unbelievers, that He hates them so much He is prepared to punish them for all eternity, with no chance of reprieve? Then give thanks that you are among the tiny fraction of Christians who has the truth on this hideous doctrine of hell.

And the horrible doctrine of hell, starts with the horrible doctrine of an immortal soul, or spirit or something which survives death.

That is why ALL truth is important, because one truth unlocks another truth, and one error leads to another doctrinal error, then to another.

Another huge doctrinal error is the belief that Paul abolishes all OT law, including the Sabbath. Now that simple untruth takes one into a spiritual mangrove swamp of ugly things.

And now I am supposed to fell better? LOL

Yes His people PERISH for a lack of knowledge...

The false doctrine of Hell is in direct conflict with the doctrine of the OT...

Yah wished we learn ”MERCY RATHER THAN SACRIFICE”...and what is burning flesh forever but exactly NOT mercy and eternal sacrifice...

This whole detour was to prove to the watching UNIVERSE that Yah is fair just and GOOD...deserving of worship from free will...choice...neither bribed by protection money nor cowed by intimidation and fear...

Choose ye this day of rest...whom ye will serve...as for me and my house we will serve (not just believe) the LORD...

HalleluYah...ok now I feel better...

Be well...iouae...u o me nothing...not even an e...lol...but its off to battle (the bezerker way to peace) to cleanse temples of false worship moneychangers...and wearing the whole armor...Yah be praised...

 

[meshak]

He is for those powerful ones too...sadly often too oppressed themselves to receive Him...

who are they?

 

[meshak]

Hi Meshak

I have never met a person powerful enough to resurrect himself

Even Jesus was resurrected by His Father.