How can God resurrect us if we do not have an immortal soul?

[clefty]

The 7 men have had her and died, yet their resurrection is still future in the description.


It is clear from the Sadducee storyteller, that the standard Jewish view was that all men would rise together with her AT SOME TIME IN THE FUTURE and squabble about who is her husband.

well actually the Sadducees didnt believe in the resurrection for that very reason...they tried to bait Yahushua with what they thought was that flaw in the resurrection...whose wife would she at that time be?

Throw in Ezekiel 37 which shows all past Israelites rising together at one time, given mortal bodies, and this supports the argument.

The Worldwide Church of God (WCG) has an interesting theory about Ezekiel 37. They say that all Israelites who never had a chance to know the Lord (and I add to that all dead and ancient Gentiles like Sodom, Nineveh, the Chinese) will be resurrected some time after Christ's return, given mortal bodies, and given their one-and-only chance at salvation - they say after the millennium, before Satan released. I find this doctrine very attractive since every human is then given a chance to know the Lord.

Rev 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
Same resurrection as that described in Ezekiel 37.

If one wants gems of truth, go mining in the smaller cults. You find a lot of worthless ore, but many nuggets too.

They (the WCG) are the only group which addresses the unfairness of being born at a time and place where nobody heard of Christ - saying these will get a shot at salvation.

that is indeed a deeper issue...

the whole OT intention was to teach and to seperate those willing to circumcise their hearts learn “mercy rather than sacrifice”...the ceremonial services were to do only that...

faith in truth revealed and obedience to it is enough and is accounted as righteousness...those before the Law was even revealed at Sinai are judged to the faith and obedience expected at their level of revelation...same as the Pygmee in the jungle...ALL hearts know right from wrong and that “mercy is preferred rather than sacrifice” and will be judged accordingly...and thus stealing a pig is wrong not because it is unclean meat but because it is stealing and all cultures recognize that without the revelation of “that is WRONG” at Sinai

The Adventists quote Romans 2:14-16 saying Gentiles will be judged by their consciences. This is such a load of crock from Ellen White, because it says one does not need Jesus to be saved, there are many gates. And this from folks fanatical about keeping their own rigid doctrines to gain salvation.

hence their zeal in missionary work to get that Name out there...well at least one close to His Name...and a message certainly more similar to His Way

I once wrote on an Adventist forum it would be better to not be an Adventist/Christian and take your chances on being judged by your conscience, than the much stricter Adventist rules.

ummm...Peter said the exact same about it better to NOT to learn the way of righteousness than having once heard the holy commandment and then turning away from it and returning like a dog to its own vomit...

there is only one path and it’s through that Name...the rest by the grace and mercy of Yah...He knows His own...it’s up to us to spread that Name

As for us who know what is TRUE...there is NO SACRIFICE when we choose to sin...Heb. 10:26

But only fearful expectation of the judgement to yet still come and of the raging fire that will CONSUME not merely torment with non consuming flames the enemies of Yah...verse 27

 

[popsthebuilder]

well actually the Sadducees didnt believe in the resurrection for that very reason...they tried to bait Yahushua with what they thought was that flaw in the resurrection...whose wife would she at that time be?

that is indeed a deeper issue...

the whole OT intention was to teach and to seperate those willing to circumcise their hearts learn “mercy rather than sacrifice”...the ceremonial services were to do only that...

faith in truth revealed and obedience to it is enough and is accounted as righteousness...those before the Law was even revealed at Sinai are judged to the faith and obedience expected at their level of revelation...same as the Pygmee in the jungle...ALL hearts know right from wrong and that “mercy is preferred rather than sacrifice” and will be judged accordingly...and thus stealing a pig is wrong not because it is unclean meat but because it is stealing and all cultures recognize that without the revelation of “that is WRONG” at Sinai

hence their zeal in missionary work to get that Name out there...well at least one close to His Name...and a message certainly more similar to His Way

ummm...Peter said the exact same about it better to NOT to learn the way of righteousness than having once heard the holy commandment and then turning away from it and returning like a dog to its own vomit...

there is only one path and it’s through that Name...the rest by the grace and mercy of Yah...He knows His own...it’s up to us to spread that Name

As for us who know what is TRUE...there is NO SACRIFICE when we choose to sin...Heb. 10:26

But only fearful expectation of the judgement to yet still come and of the raging fire that will CONSUME not merely torment with non consuming flames the enemies of Yah...verse 27

I agree with a lot of what you said here.

Do you limit GOD to a singular name? (YaH)?

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[clefty]

I agree with a lot of what you said here.

Do you limit GOD to a singular name? (YaH)?

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No not at all...He did

We give Him other nick names and titles and descriptions too
And have learned to go by those to reference Him

But covenants and promises are SWORN CONTRACTS and being legal documents accurate proper names matter...

and just wish not to have His Name carried from Sinai to Yahrusalem all for nothing...

HalleluYah

More important for me perhaps is that I am known by Yah and MY NAME be written into the book of life and LEFT there...but I am learning ALL THIS is more than just about me...

 

[popsthebuilder]

No not at all...He did

We give Him other nick names and titles and descriptions too
And have learned to go by those to reference Him

But covenants and promises are SWORN CONTRACTS and being legal documents accurate proper names matter...

and just wish not to have His Name carried from Sinai to Yahrusalem all for nothing...

HalleluYah

More important for me perhaps is that I am known by Yah and MY NAME be written into the book of life and LEFT there...but I am learning ALL THIS is more than just about me...

"Known by YaH?"

"Know of" seems slightly more fitting.

I'm sorry, but at first read it read wholly differently as if you were proclaiming to be GOD. wording is important; we agree.

peace

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[clefty]

"Known by YaH?"

"Know of" seems slightly more fitting.

I'm sorry, but at first read it read wholly differently as if uyou were proclaiming to be GOD. wording is important; we agree.

peace

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No no no not at all...

Was referring to Paul writing to the Galatians a proud culture of celts who came to believe after not knowing Yah as Paul writes it but then corrects himself with that they were now KNOWN by Him for their faith and obedience...like their prayers as with phone calls were finally getting through to Him ha and He finally came to know them as before all their worship and prayers went to some other dude...but now He knows them and Paul was afraid they were returning to dialing the other numbers again...

Gal 4:9

 

[popsthebuilder]

No no no not at all...

Was referring to Paul writing to the Galatians a proud culture of celts who came to believe after not knowing Yah as Paul writes it but then corrects himself with that they were now KNOWN by Him for their faith and obedience...like their prayers as with phone calls were finally getting through to Him ha and He finally came to know them as before all their worship and prayers went to some other dude...but now He knows them and Paul was afraid they were returning to dialing the other numbers again...

Gal 4:9

I concede; as stated; it was at first glance and you surely did not mean what I had initially and prematurely gathered.

peace

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[clefty]

I concede; as stated; it was at first glance and you surely did not mean what I had initially and prematurely gathered.

peace

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No worries...we are after all, each other’s keeper brother...so thanks for the caution and request for clarity...

 

[way 2 go]

And humans have an innate desire to believe half-truths and outright lies. We will always defend our point of view, no matter how half-baked it is simply because it is OUR point of view.

you suffer from illegitimate totality transfer
you have latched on to 1 definition of the word spirit & have illegitimate totality transferred it to be the
only meaning of the word that has multiple meanings.

pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

Act 19:15 But the evil spirit answered them,

you say the evil o2 answered them,

 

[popsthebuilder]

you suffer from illegitimate totality transfer
you have latched on to 1 definition of the word spirit & have illegitimate totality transferred it to be the
only meaning of the word that has multiple meanings.

pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

Act 19:15 But the evil spirit answered them,

you say the evil o2 answered them,

That word can also mean tempest/ evil spirit/ wind

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[way 2 go]

So is Peter here is believing as Saul did of the apparition that the donkey spoke of itself?

That Saul knew it was Samuel is what he wished it to be...just as pagans know their graven rocks and adorned trees ARE gods...but when pressed they admit they are of their gods...and disobedient israel knew the golden calf WAS Yah but would admit it was just gold shaped into their belief of His image...and christians their images of Jesus IS Jesus...the more sophisticated of them with disclaimers “no no no it’s not actually Jesus we use it to remind ourselves to think of focus on pray to Him and through it...through this image we render worship to its prototype it being a window into heaven...we are allowed to make this ikon and use it because He became flesh incarnate thus visible so we can break the second will of His Father...fuh fuh fuh”...good grief

That the apparition was real and visible is not the issue but that Saul knew it was because he wished it to be believed it to be willed it so and thus for him it was...as if witches CAN disturb the saints and rise them from Abraham’s bosom...Abraham knows they have Moses and the prophets and wont believe anyone risen from the flames or from His bosom...why would Saul believe it to be Samuel...oh wait Saul did believe...did Abraham lie??...or wrong?

And now even Peter believes the donkey spoke on its own in a human voice...

this event in the bible is a one time event

and the bible repeatedly says it was Samuel



1Sa 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel

1Sa 28:14 ... And Saul knew that it was Samuel,

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul,

1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said,

1Sa 28:20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel


I also believe that when it says Saul answered that it was Saul

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered,


why do you not believe the bible?
when the bible says its Saul its Saul
when the bible says its Samuel its Samuel

 

[iouae]

you suffer from illegitimate totality transfer
you have latched on to 1 definition of the word spirit & have illegitimate totality transferred it to be the
only meaning of the word that has multiple meanings.

pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

Act 19:15 But the evil spirit answered them,

you say the evil o2 answered them,

Thanks for diagnosing my condition - except I have never said that ruach/pneuma can only mean O2?

It means all the many meanings in Strongs/Thayers etc.

I am saying ruach means O2 when we are speaking about both having identical ruach as in...
Ecc 3:18. Here ruach really means "life" because the life is in the blood, and it is "breath/O2"/RUACH giving life


I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath/RUACH; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21
Who knoweth the spirit/RUACH of man that goeth upward, and the spirit/RUACH of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Both man and beast breath the same O2, have the same blood, and if Solomon is to be believed, are no different in what gives them life, and no different in their death.

Can we at least agree that the ruach in a beast is not a spiritual/immortal component?

 

[way 2 go]

That word can also mean tempest/ evil spirit/ wind

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I don't see tempest in there but breeze /wind, sure

but iou has only 1 definition = o2
illegitimate totality transfer


pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.



Act 19:15 But the evil spirit answered them,

iou says the evil o2 answered them,

 

[iouae]

the whole OT intention was to teach and to seperate those willing to circumcise their hearts learn “mercy rather than sacrifice”...the ceremonial services were to do only that...

faith in truth revealed and obedience to it is enough and is accounted as righteousness...those before the Law was even revealed at Sinai are judged to the faith and obedience expected at their level of revelation...same as the Pygmee in the jungle...ALL hearts know right from wrong and that “mercy is preferred rather than sacrifice” and will be judged accordingly...and thus stealing a pig is wrong not because it is unclean meat but because it is stealing and all cultures recognize that without the revelation of “that is WRONG” at Sinai

Clefty, all humans no doubt have a sense of right and wrong. But this is IMHO irrelevant to the process of salvation. Salvation is by Christ alone. There is one gate, one sheepfold. There is one reason we are on earth, and one reason to live. That is to discover Jesus, and befriend Him. There is but one box to tick, and that is the "Friend of Jesus" box. Not "Friend of Jesus" AND sin free. Not "Friend of Jesus" AND "done great works for Jesus". Not "Friend of Jesus" AND "smart too".

A Pygmie, a citizen of Nineveh, a Chinaman a headhunter in the Amazon - all may have wonderful morals and ethics. It profits them nothing.

I do not compromise on this point. Why? People have to know and love Jesus, because they are going to be around Him forever, cooperating with Him, bowing the knee to Him. Any and all life experience without it directed at Jesus may be nice, but its only useful once it is directed towards Him.

That is why I say the Adventists are completely wrong thinking folks will be judged on their consciences. And yes I have read Romans 2, since I quoted it when I made the original point.

Folks so twist Paul. Pauls point is that we are all GUILTY with or without the formal writing of the law.

Paul never says the antidote to our guilt is anything but Jesus.

 

[way 2 go]

Thanks for diagnosing my condition - except I have never said that ruach/pneuma can only mean O2?

It means all the many meanings in Strongs/Thayers etc.

I am saying ruach means O2 when we are speaking about both having identical ruach as in...
Ecc 3:18. Here ruach really means "life" because the life is in the blood, and it is "breath/O2"/RUACH giving life


I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath/RUACH; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21
Who knoweth the spirit/RUACH of man that goeth upward, and the spirit/RUACH of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Both man and beast breath the same O2, have the same blood, and if Solomon is to be believed, are no different in what gives them life, and no different in their death.

Can we at least agree that the ruach in a beast is not a spiritual/immortal component?

rûach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

funny how NO bible translates it as air


Ecc 3:21 Who knows the air of man that goes upward, and the air of the beast that goes downward?

I will go with: spirit

Ecc 3:21 Who knows the spirit of man that goes upward, and the spirit of the beast that goes downward?

and to answer Solomon's question, God knows



Ecc 4:6 Better is a hand filled with rest than two fists with travail and vexation of spirit.

Ecc 4:6 Better is a hand filled with rest than two fists with travail and vexation of air.

 

[clefty]

this event in the bible is a one time event

and the bible repeatedly says it was Samuel



1Sa 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel

1Sa 28:14 ... And Saul knew that it was Samuel,

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul,

1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said,

1Sa 28:20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel


I also believe that when it says Saul answered that it was Saul

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered,


why do you not believe the bible?
when the bible says its Saul its Saul
when the bible says its Samuel its Samuel

Simply because I don’t believe witches were to be killed because they were actually able to raise the dead from Abraham’s bosom...but because His stiffnecked people thought that people lived beyond being dead and could be rung up for assistance or whatever...and in seeing something called up they would believe and change their lives because of it...rejecting Him and His way which is the dead return to the dust the spirit He loaned them returns to Him the life giver and the soul waits reconnection between the two...

It’s a great controversy and Satan will counterfeit all he can to continue the deception that man was created immortal and not dependent on the tree of life...

Every other culture/people/beleif out there make images and create ideas regarding immortality...His do NOT.

 

[iouae]

but iou has only 1 definition = o2
iou says the evil o2 answered them,

Never said that, sorry.

 

[clefty]

Clefty, all humans no doubt have a sense of right and wrong. But this is IMHO irrelevant to the process of salvation. Salvation is by Christ alone. There is one gate, one sheepfold. There is one reason we are on earth, and one reason to live. That is to discover Jesus, and befriend Him. There is but one box to tick, and that is the "Friend of Jesus" box. Not "Friend of Jesus" AND sin free. Not "Friend of Jesus" AND "done great works for Jesus". Not "Friend of Jesus" AND "smart too".

A Pygmie, a citizen of Nineveh, a Chinaman a headhunter in the Amazon - all may have wonderful morals and ethics. It profits them nothing.

I do not compromise on this point. Why? People have to know and love Jesus, because they are going to be around Him forever, cooperating with Him, bowing the knee to Him. Any and all life experience without it directed at Jesus may be nice, but its only useful once it is directed towards Him.

That is why I say the Adventists are completely wrong thinking folks will be judged on their consciences. And yes I have read Romans 2, since I quoted it when I made the original point.

Folks so twist Paul. Pauls point is that we are all GUILTY with or without the formal writing of the law.

Paul never says the antidote to our guilt is anything but Jesus.

There is nothing in scripture or my understanding that when the pygmee, chinaman, headhunter WHO ENDEAVERED TO LIVE A GOOD LIFE INCLUSIVE OF ALL HE KNEW TO BE GOOD when he resurrects at the resurrection and sees TRUTH there for Him he will of course and like the citizen of Nineveh immediately accept He Who his heart had always earned for...and which was judged for...

Of course it’s up to us to be the Jonah and reach him with the message his heart is seeking...

 

[iouae]

There is nothing in scripture or my understanding that when the pygmee, chinaman, headhunter WHO ENDEAVERED TO LIVE A GOOD LIFE INCLUSIVE OF ALL HE KNEW TO BE GOOD when he resurrects at the resurrection and sees TRUTH there for Him he will of course and like the citizen of Nineveh immediately accept He Who his heart had always earned for...and which was judged for...

Of course it’s up to us to be the Jonah and reach him with the message his heart is seeking...

Well Clefty, it seems you might be about to get some new understanding

A loving relationship/friendship with someone is completely different to being good, decent, moral.

Completely different skill sets.

God is not collecting good, decent, moral folks.

He is collecting Jesus' friends. If they don't know Jesus, its not even close, and its certainly no cigar.

Jas 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

If we are friends of Jesus, we are Abraham's seed.

Gal 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Was anyone in the faith chapter (Heb 11) a non-friend of God's?

Christianity is about a relationship with Jesus. Everything else is a distant second.

 

[Lon]

You just totally modified what Solomon said to say there are 2 categories of mankind, when Solomon said all mankind, no reference to two categories, those with God and without. And if man has an immortal soul, it should not matter anyhow, since the immortal soul would go one to heaven, one to hell. Solomon says it does neither. It goes where beasts go - to the grave.

If you modify scripture at will, you will end up in the reeds.

lain: See "Bible Training" .com for instance. "I" think you are asserting here, and beyond your paygrade. Not aware of what MOST think this book is about? Just asserting your opinion over others? :idunno:
I hate to return snarky assertion with equal disdain, but I'd politely, if arrogantly, suggest you resurvey the book.

Again making up scripture. The scripture describes the state of the dead, not the living before they died as you make out. And again no division into good dead and bad dead in Ps 115:17. That division exists only in your mind.

AGAIN over asserting your paygrade. I know scripture and warned you plainly you had better up your game beyond lame assertions. It was fair warning. Your little quick and dirty is quick, dirty, and inane. Use scriptures or your thread is DOA with you just opinionating. You are not able to deliver, iow. I can. Easily. It is sad you cannot. 2 Corinthians 5:8 Philippians 1:23

As I said, Catholics believe as you do, so that isn't the problem. There are some scriptures, mostly OT, that would support you, but you are too caught up in your belief to even 'listen' to anything other than your own shortsighted nose.

No big deal, stay there. You just said the same thing to another. It is ironic you are of the same mindset. Maybe we all are but snarky and asserting prowess over another isn't the way to go. It is just posturing and no movement, and, imho, defeats the purpose of discussion and threads on TOL. Granted you may have just wanted to posture you beliefs and teach/assert them, but I'm not interested in that kind of conversation. Have a good thread. :wave:

 

[clefty]

Well Clefty, it seems you might be about to get some new understanding

A loving relationship/friendship with someone is completely different to being good, decent, moral.

Completely different skill sets.

God is not collecting good, decent, moral folks.

He is collecting Jesus' friends. If they don't know Jesus, its not even close, and its certainly no cigar.

Jas 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

If we are friends of Jesus, we are Abraham's seed.

Gal 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Was anyone in the faith chapter (Heb 11) a non-friend of God's?

Christianity is about a relationship with Jesus. Everything else is a distant second.

For Yah so loved the world...He knows His...we are to merely confirm it...go and teach and preach and baptize those that the Father draws unto Him...and dust our sandals of those that reject...most of them...even here in TOL...the path is narrow after all...not a 8 lane highway...

Most having heard will accept and change and be that friend or not...it doesnt take long...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watkin_Roberts

There are Ninevehs to be sure but more Sodom and Gomorahs...