Holiness Theology and the Gospel

jamie

jamie

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Robert Pate said:
James changed his mind about circumsiseing Gentile Christians, Acts 15:19.
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Was Abraham a Gentile?

Did he subscribe to circumcision of the flesh?

If so then there was a long tradition of circumcision before it was shown to Peter that it was not required of Gentiles.

Modern day Judaizers claim that Gentiles must refer to the Most High by some form of Hebrew name.

What a scam.
 
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Bard_the_Bowman

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Robert Pate said:
James is repenting after a long argument with Paul and the other apostles, Acts 15:7.
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James is repenting??

The text doesn't say that, Robert. You are reading that into the text. That is called "eisegesis".

The text doesn't even mention James until verse 13.

What the text actually shows us is that there was a great debate about this matter between all of the apostles and elders. We just have to include verse 6 with verse 7:

"And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing,..." (Acts 15:6-7)

You have to read the whole thing not just what you want to read.
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Robert, I could not agree more! :thumb:

Even after that James still could not turn lose of the law, Acts 15:20, 21.
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If we read more carefully, starting at verse 22 and continuing through verse 29 we see that everyone present agreed.

It says that it pleased the apostles, and the elders, and the whole church to circulate letters around declaring the decision that had been made.

Since everyone agreed to that. If James is a Judaizer, then so is everyone else including Paul, Peter, Barnabus and all the rest.

But they aren't.

Peace.
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C

chair

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
People that have embraced a holiness theology have little to no use for the Gospel and justification by faith. Many are Paul haters because this is what Paul taught. Paul plainly taught that all men are sinners and are justified by faith apart from works and obedience to the law or the commandments of Jesus...
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Should be called Paulianity instead of Christianity.
 
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Robert Pate

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Banned
Bard_the_Bowman said:
James is repenting??

The text doesn't say that, Robert. You are reading that into the text. That is called "eisegesis".

The text doesn't even mention James until verse 13.

What the text actually shows us is that there was a great debate about this matter between all of the apostles and elders. We just have to include verse 6 with verse 7:

"And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing,..." (Acts 15:6-7)



Robert, I could not agree more! :thumb:



If we read more carefully, starting at verse 22 and continuing through verse 29 we see that everyone present agreed.

It says that it pleased the apostles, and the elders, and the whole church to circulate letters around declaring the decision that had been made.

Since everyone agreed to that. If James is a Judaizer, then so is everyone else including Paul, Peter, Barnabus and all the rest.

But they aren't.

Peace.
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James was the one that wanted to circumcise the Gentile believers, not Paul.
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Bard_the_Bowman

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Robert Pate said:
Bard_the_Bowman said:
James was the one that wanted to circumcise the Gentile believers, not Paul.
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I understand that that is what you believe.

But you haven't yet shown me any evidence that that is true.

What in Acts 15 shows that James wanted to circumcise the Gentiles?

Since Paul, James and all of the others came to an agreement on this matter...if you want to continue to call James a Judaizer without evidence and he is in agreement with all of the others...well, then all of the others (including Paul) would have to be Judaizers as well to be consistent in your thinking.

You haven't given any evidence from Acts 15 that James is a Judaizer.

You are just reading that idea into the text.

It isn't there.

Peace.
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R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Bard_the_Bowman said:
Robert Pate said:
I understand that that is what you believe.

But you haven't yet shown me any evidence that that is true.

What in Acts 15 shows that James wanted to circumcise the Gentiles?

Since Paul, James and all of the others came to an agreement on this matter...if you want to continue to call James a Judaizer without evidence and he is in agreement with all of the others...well, then all of the others (including Paul) would have to be Judaizers as well to be consistent in your thinking.

You haven't given any evidence from Acts 15 that James is a Judaizer.

You are just reading that idea into the text.

It isn't there.

Peace.
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Sure it is. You just don't want to believe it. Notice how James lays the law back on them after it was all over, Acts 15:20, 21.
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jamie

jamie

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beloved57 said:
Yet you teach the sinners He came into the world to save are still lost ! What a shame !
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Pate teaches universal salvation.

He says we are saved by the doing and dying of Jesus and that Jesus died for everyone.

That's universal salvation which includes your group.
 
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Bard_the_Bowman

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Robert Pate said:
James was the one that wanted to circumcise the Gentile believers, not Paul.
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Paul had Timothy circumcised because Timothy's father was a Gentile:

"Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek." (Acts 16:3)

I don't believe that makes Paul a Judaizer.

But I still don't see any evidence of James wanting to circumcise anyone.

Peace.
 
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Bard_the_Bowman

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Robert Pate said:
Bard_the_Bowman said:
Sure it is. You just don't want to believe it. Notice how James lays the law back on them after it was all over, Acts 15:20, 21.
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Avoiding idols is a work now? Avoiding fornication is a work now? Then they and all of us are guilty of those works.

I don't see anything about James demanding circumcision. You are making that up.

The early church was in a unique time because they had to balance the break with Judaism and the New Covenant and incorporate both Jews and Gentiles into the church. James suggests a pastoral solution as a stepping stone towards the future when the break between Judaism and Christianity would be much more definite. But that took time and in Acts they are just beginning that process.

But here's what you are ignoring...they all agreed with what James said: (Notice parts in bold)

"Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts 15:22-29)

Notice that it isn't just James.

It seemed good to the apostles, elders, brethren and even the Holy Ghost!

Nope. There is no evidence here that James is a Judaizer. If we read the passages carefully we pretty clearly can see that James, with all the rest of the assembly, and even the Holy Spirit are in agreement on the decision.

Peace.
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Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
Bard_the_Bowman said:
Um...yes, I do. I thought we clarified this in our last discussion. When you use the term "faith alone" you mean a faith that includes repentance, forgiveness, and love.

And I agree with that use of "faith alone".

I just don't see how that is a faith that is alone. The other elements, take love, for example, are not the same as faith. Paul makes that clear in 1 Corinthians 13.

But I think in essence we are in agreement.




False.

I already stated that it is by God's grace that we can have faith, come to repentance, forgive, and love.

It is all by God's grace.

That is giving God all of the credit, not taking credit away from God.

Peace.
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So why do some Christians have a grace filled faith which works by love and other Christians have a graceless dead faith that is filled with self-love?
 
L

Lazy afternoon

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Robert Pate said:
Sure it is. You just don't want to believe it. Notice how James lays the law back on them after it was all over, Acts 15:20, 21.
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It was not the reintroduction of the law.

Those things, the satan worshippers were doing in their services.

The saints are required to avoid all such practices.

LA
 
L

Lazy afternoon

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Robert Pate said:
People that have embraced a holiness theology have little to no use for the Gospel and justification by faith. Many are Paul haters because this is what Paul taught. Paul plainly taught that all men are sinners and are justified by faith apart from works and obedience to the law or the commandments of Jesus.

"As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23.

"Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief" 1 Timothy 1:15

Many of the prophets and patriarch's confessed that they were unworthy sinners. Isaiah wrote,

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all of our righteousness is as filthy rags, Isaiah 64:6.

In spite of all of these scriptures the holiness people still maintain that they can please God and keep the commandments of Jesus. Many of the holiness people are Pentecostals, while others are Nazarenes or Catholics. Regardless they are all rejecters of the Gospel and justification by faith. Then the question arises, can one reject the Gospel and justification by faith and still be saved? I think not. What they are, are counterfeits. They act like Christians they talk like Christians, but they do not posses the Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of truth, John 16:13.

One of the works of the Holy Spirit is to convict the believer that he is a sinner, Romans 3:19. The whole world stands guilty before God's Holy Law. Both believers and unbelievers. This is why we need to be saved and justified by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Salvation is totally and completely outside of us and is only found in the doing and the dying of Jesus.

In the Gospel, Jesus clothes himself in our humanity and becomes one with us, but not one of us. In our name and on our behalf Jesus offers to God the Father a life of perfect obedience according to his holy law. He does this for our justification. We are justified because Jesus fulfilled the law for us. We can't fulfill it because we are sinners, saved sinners. That was not enough, something had to be done about our sins and the sins of the whole world. This is why,

"He has made him to be sins for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" 2 Corinthians 5:23.

In Jesus Christ we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30. God now sees us as complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. We who are saved have been saved by the doing and the dying of Jesus and have no confidence in our flesh, Philippians 3:3.
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Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Heb 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
 
R

Robert Pate

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Banned
Lazy afternoon said:
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Heb 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
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All good scripture. I have been to the Lord's woodshed more than once.
 
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