Holiness Theology and the Gospel

[glorydaz]

As long as we are in these Adamic bodies we are sinners, saved sinners. We have not received glorification yet. We are still in the groaning stage, Romans 8:22-25.

You may call us sinners, but Paul tells us we are not under the Law, and he refers to us as saints. :chew:

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

When the Bible talks about works it is usually a work of the law or a religious thing.

Sorry to interject here but I don't agree.

The Bible does speak of the "works of the law".

But it also speaks of "good works done in love". And it speaks about these in a positive way.

Those two types of "works" cannot be lumped together. They are not the same thing.

In other words, when the Bible speaks of "works", we have to be able to discern which it is talking about.

For example:

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16 KJV)

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10 KJV)

"That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:17 KJV)

" For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." (Galatians 5:6 KJV)

There are many religious people that are trying to be justified by the works of the law. A work of the law is any religious thing that one might do. The law does not save or justify. This is why Paul said,

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.

"Works of the law" from Paul typically meant the Jewish ceremonial works etc. that separated the Jews from the Gentiles.

It did not mean "any religious thing one might do".

If what you call "religious people" are doing "good works" in "love" and not the Jewish ceremonial laws, dietary restrictions, etc......Well, according to Scripture, that is a very good thing.

Peace.

 

[Robert Pate]

You may call us sinners, but Paul tells us we are not under the Law, and he refers to us as saints. :chew:

Paul referred to himself as "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15. We are sinners and saints at the same time.

 

[Robert Pate]

Sorry to interject here but I don't agree.

The Bible does speak of the "works of the law".

But it also speaks of "good works done in love". And it speaks about these in a positive way.

Those two types of "works" cannot be lumped together. They are not the same thing.

In other words, when the Bible speaks of "works", we have to be able to discern which it is talking about.

For example:

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16 KJV)

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10 KJV)

"That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:17 KJV)

" For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." (Galatians 5:6 KJV)



"Works of the law" from Paul typically meant the Jewish ceremonial works etc. that separated the Jews from the Gentiles.

It did not mean "any religious thing one might do".

If what you call "religious people" are doing "good works" in "love" and not the Jewish ceremonial laws, dietary restrictions, etc......Well, according to Scripture, that is a very good thing.

Peace.

All works are a good thing. But good works do not justify. There is no scripture that says that your good works will justify. The only thing that justifies is faith in Christ and his Gospel, Romans 4:4-5.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

All works are a good thing. But good works do not justify. There is no scripture that says that your good works will justify. The only thing that justifies is faith in Christ and his Gospel, Romans 4:4-5.

Agreed.

Works alone do not justify. Neither does faith alone.

Faith and good works go together.

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17 KJV)

See also James 2:18-26.

Peace.

 

[Robert Pate]

Agreed.

Works alone do not justify. Neither does faith alone.

Faith and good works go together.

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17 KJV)

See also James 2:18-26.

Peace.

Nope, its faith alone. Good works are the results of faith, not the cause of it.

James was a Judaizer. A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also believes that you must keep the law of Moses. There were many Judaizers in the early church.

James was the head of the church in Jerusalem. He wanted to circumcise Gentile believers after the law of Moses. You can read about the whole thing in the 15th chapter of Acts.

 

[Epoisses]

Agreed.

Works alone do not justify. Neither does faith alone.

Faith and good works go together.

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17 KJV)

See also James 2:18-26.

Peace.

Wrong. Faith alone does justify everyone who comes under the blessed protection of it. Outside this city of refuge the avenger of blood (broken law) awaits to take all those who reject it. You're snared in the trap of the devil.

 

[glorydaz]

Paul referred to himself as "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15. We are sinners and saints at the same time.

If you look at the verse in context, you'll see he isn't saying he is the worst sinner, but foremost in sequence or time. He just gets through saying he had been counted faithful, and mentions what he had been "before".

1 Tim. 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.​

Chief clearly cannot mean worst. Especially when you look at all the other times Paul uses that particular word. I think it refers to being saved by the Gospel of Grace.

1 Tim. 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.​

And why? "In me FIRST"....FOR A PATTERN to them which should believe unto salvation.

1 Tim. 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.​

 

[daqq]

James was a Judaizer. A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also believes that you must keep the law of Moses. There were many Judaizers in the early church.

James was the head of the church in Jerusalem. He wanted to circumcise Gentile believers after the law of Moses. You can read about the whole thing in the 15th chapter of Acts.

What can be said about anyone who would intentionally lie about and misrepresent the scripture? let alone one who falsely proclaims himself to be "Christian" while presuming to be not only a teacher but a judge of others? What a sad, twisted, cruel joke your own teacher has played on you. Who was it who taught you that you can just make up things and lie about the scriptures to suit your doctrine as you go?

Acts 15:1-26 ASV
1 And certain men came down from Judæa and taught the brethren, saying, Except ye be circumcised after the custom of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and questioning with them, the brethren appointed that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3 They therefore, being brought on their way by the church, passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church and the apostles and the elders, and they rehearsed all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying, It is needful to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much questioning, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Brethren, ye know that a good while ago God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us;
9 and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why make ye trial of God, that ye should put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they.
12 And all the multitude kept silence; and they hearkened unto Barnabas and Paul rehearsing what signs and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles through them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,
18 Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old.
19 Wherefore my judgment is, that we trouble not them that from among the Gentiles turn to God;
20 but that we write unto them, that they abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses from generations of old hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath.
22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men out of their company, and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 and they wrote thus by them, The apostles and the elders, brethren, unto the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greeting:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard that certain who went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment;
25 it seemed good unto us, having come to one accord, to choose out men and send them unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Nope, its faith alone.

Yes....depending on what you mean by that. If you mean something like Paul teaches in Galatians 5:6 "faith which worketh by love"...then yes.

If you mean something like "intellectual assent" alone. Then no. Even the demons have that but they are not saved.

Good works are the results of faith, not the cause of it.

Whoever said that good works are the cause of faith?

Faith and good works are complementary. James is talking about a "faith that works". And that is what Paul is talking about in Galatians 5:6. (a faith that worketh by love).

James was a Judaizer. A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also believes that you must keep the law of Moses. There were many Judaizers in the early church.

Why do you think James was a Judaizer?

James was the head of the church in Jerusalem. He wanted to circumcise Gentile believers after the law of Moses. You can read about the whole thing in the 15th chapter of Acts.

Ok. I read Acts 15. What is it in that chapter that makes you think James was a Judaizer? I am not seeing where it says that James wanted to circumcise Gentiles.

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Wrong. Faith alone does justify everyone who comes under the blessed protection of it. Outside this city of refuge the avenger of blood (broken law) awaits to take all those who reject it. You're snared in the trap of the devil.

Hey Epoisses,

Well, we just had a discussion about "faith alone" recently.

And we found out that both of our definitions of that mean more than just "belief".

We found out that the term is broad enough to include elements of repentance AND forgiveness/forgiving AND love.

I think you called it:

Repentance is a gift so when I said God gives his love to repentant sinners it still falls within the happy and holy place of 'faith alone'.

That's what James is talking about in his letter. A faith that works. And that is what Paul says in Galatians 5:6 "a faith that worketh by love".

So yeah, in that sense, I agree with you that we are saved by "faith alone".

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

What can be said about anyone who would intentionally lie about and misrepresent the scripture? let alone one who falsely proclaims himself to be "Christian" while presuming to be not only a teacher but a judge of others? What a sad, twisted, cruel joke your own teacher has played on you. Who was it who taught you that you can just make up things and lie about the scriptures to suit your doctrine as you go?

Acts 15:1-26 ASV
1 And certain men came down from Judæa and taught the brethren, saying, Except ye be circumcised after the custom of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and questioning with them, the brethren appointed that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3 They therefore, being brought on their way by the church, passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church and the apostles and the elders, and they rehearsed all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying, It is needful to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much questioning, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Brethren, ye know that a good while ago God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us;
9 and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why make ye trial of God, that ye should put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they.
12 And all the multitude kept silence; and they hearkened unto Barnabas and Paul rehearsing what signs and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles through them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,
18 Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old.
19 Wherefore my judgment is, that we trouble not them that from among the Gentiles turn to God;
20 but that we write unto them, that they abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses from generations of old hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath.
22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men out of their company, and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 and they wrote thus by them, The apostles and the elders, brethren, unto the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greeting:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard that certain who went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment;
25 it seemed good unto us, having come to one accord, to choose out men and send them unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

A very nice post daqq. :thumb:

I wonder if some people just aren't reading carefully versus trying to deceive?

Sometimes it happens to me when I am not reading carefully.

Peace.

 

[daqq]

A very nice post daqq. :thumb:

I wonder if some people just aren't reading carefully versus trying to deceive?

Sometimes it happens to me when I am not reading carefully.

Peace.

One who assumes to himself the office of teacher should expect higher criticism for what he says, (and certainly should not be making such blatant errors, especially while condemning others to hell for not agreeing with his brand of doctrine, lol). And one who produces more daily threads than a momma rabbit can produce offspring no doubt considers himself a "teacher" and leader of this little online community, (lol).

 

[daqq]

A very nice post daqq. :thumb:

I wonder if some people just aren't reading carefully versus trying to deceive?

Sometimes it happens to me when I am not reading carefully.

Peace.

One who assumes to himself the office of teacher should expect higher criticism for what he says, (and certainly should not be making such blatant errors, especially while condemning others to hell for not agreeing with his brand of doctrine, lol). And one who produces more daily threads than a momma rabbit can produce offspring no doubt considers himself a "teacher" and leader of this little online community, (lol).

And aside from that do not think that RP does not know what he is doing:

A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also believes that you must follow the law of Moses.

There were many Judaizers in the early church. The apostle James was one of them. Many did not understand the Gospel and justification by faith apart from the works of the law. Paul was the only apostle that fully understood that Christians were no longer required to follow the law. The reason for this is because Paul received the Gospel directly from Jesus Christ, Galatians 1:11,12. It is the Gospel that frees us from the law of Moses.

James sent men to spy on Peter and Barnabas to see if they were eating with Gentiles, Galatians 2:12. This was a direct violation of the law of Moses. When the Jews walked into the dinner there at the church in Antioch, Peter and Barnabas went under the table. Paul saw the whole thing and gave everyone a good tongue lashing, Galatians 2:14-21.

Later on in Acts 15, Paul wanted to introduce some Gentile believers to the church there in Jerusalem. When James and some of the others got word that they were coming they said, "Except that you are circumcised after the manner of Moses, you cannot be saved" Acts 15:1. This caused some dispute. If it had not been for all of the things that God was doing with the Gentiles through Paul they probably would have circumcised them, but because of Paul's testimony they let them off.

Are You a Judaizer?

This person has no clue what the scriptures teach because he confounds devils with people. Those who went to "spy" on Paul are the same "certain ones" in Jude who may "creep in unawares" while you are "feasting in the Word" if you are not careful, just as they have apparently so done with RP, (and have infected his doctrine). The same are those of which Jude says were "fore-written of old time to such condemnation", thus they are "men of old", "men of renown", or the "men having been named", (Gen 4, Gen 6, and elsewhere, gibborim, and "permanent dwellers upon the land" whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world). In other words those are not the kind of "men" you can see with your eyes of the flesh. Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and the leaven of the Sadducees, and the leaven of Herod, (the Herodians), for the kingdom of the heavens is likened unto leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, until the whole lump was leavened, (Mt 13:33), and the kingdom of Elohim is within you, (Lk 17:20,21).

 

[Epoisses]

Hey Epoisses,

Well, we just had a discussion about "faith alone" recently.

And we found out that both of our definitions of that mean more than just "belief".

We found out that the term is broad enough to include elements of repentance AND forgiveness/forgiving AND love.

I think you called it:

That's what James is talking about in his letter. A faith that works. And that is what Paul says in Galatians 5:6 "a faith that worketh by love".

So yeah, in that sense, I agree with you that we are saved by "faith alone".

Peace.

You don't agree. You want to take the credit away from God which is sin.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

You don't agree.

Um...yes, I do. I thought we clarified this in our last discussion. When you use the term "faith alone" you mean a faith that includes repentance, forgiveness, and love.

And I agree with that use of "faith alone".

I just don't see how that is a faith that is alone. The other elements, take love, for example, are not the same as faith. Paul makes that clear in 1 Corinthians 13.

But I think in essence we are in agreement.

You want to take the credit away from God which is sin.

False.

I already stated that it is by God's grace that we can have faith, come to repentance, forgive, and love.

It is all by God's grace.

That is giving God all of the credit, not taking credit away from God.

Peace.

 

[Robert Pate]

Yes....depending on what you mean by that. If you mean something like Paul teaches in Galatians 5:6 "faith which worketh by love"...then yes.

If you mean something like "intellectual assent" alone. Then no. Even the demons have that but they are not saved.






Whoever said that good works are the cause of faith?

Faith and good works are complementary. James is talking about a "faith that works". And that is what Paul is talking about in Galatians 5:6. (a faith that worketh by love).



Why do you think James was a Judaizer?



Ok. I read Acts 15. What is it in that chapter that makes you think James was a Judaizer? I am not seeing where it says that James wanted to circumcise Gentiles.

Peace.

You don't want to believe that James was a Judaizer, just like you don't want to believe that we are justified by faith alone. There is no hope for you that cannot accept the truth. You remain in darkness.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

You don't want to believe that James was a Judaizer, just like you don't want to believe that we are justified by faith alone. There is no hope for you that cannot accept the truth. You remain in darkness.

A very weak answer, to be honest, Robert.

I asked you why you believe James was a Judaizer. You said Acts 15 shows that James wanted to circumcise the Gentiles.

Well, how about explaining where you see that so that I can see that too?

If you do not, then I'll have to conclude that you cannot.

Which means you would like me to believe that James is a Judaizer just because you say so.

That isn't good enough for me. I want some biblical evidence please.

How about giving me some evidence from Acts 15 that can convince me that James was a Judaizer?

Thanks.

Peace.

 

[jamie]

James was a Judaizer. A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also believes that you must keep the law of Moses.

Is that what James said?

"Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God." (Acts 15:19)

It doesn't matter to you what scripture says does it?

 

[Robert Pate]

Is that what James said?

"Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God." (Acts 15:19)

It doesn't matter to you what scripture says does it?

James is repenting after a long argument with Paul and the other apostles, Acts 15:7. You have to read the whole thing not just what you want to read. Even after that James still could not turn lose of the law, Acts 15:20, 21.