Hello from a UK Athiest

[xAvarice]

No worries on that queue, i'm not God - and also not thinking you're at a place yet where you want the truth at all costs either.

Lets check:

If you had undeniable proof that the God of the bible was the real and only God and that everything in the bible was accurate the way we "fundies" present it all, would you drop everything and follow Him?

Or would you say something like " a God like that is not worthy of my worship"

Hmm, let's concede for a moment that you have undeniable proof, I'm not sure that I want to spend eternity in the heaven described in the bible, Tertullian had the only real appealing attribute to consign to it, however - would I like to burn forever? I don't think it's something to be brave about, bravery is only possible with an objective in mind, perhaps I'd be stupid enough to try it. (I suppose you'll grant me that)

It'd be a shame if God didn't give you the chance to test the "rooms" as go all the good afterlife jokes.

If it's one or the other, I'd most likely choose heaven, although I'd prefer... darkness and peace, I'd want to return to the place antepartum to me.

So yes, I haven't even ruled out the possibility of deism... it could be possible, likely is a stretch, but possible. Theism still has some way to go after that, but my anxiety ceases depending upon evidence.

Evidence is the key.

 

[IMJerusha]

I think as a child I didn't have a strong view. I was prepared to accept there may be 'something'. As years went by I studied more investigated different religions. Eventually concluding that none have more validity than others. To me the only logical conclusion is atheism.

So, as a child you had your strongest faith and that makes sense. God is not going to respond to anything but faith. Faith isn't logical either. It makes absolutely no sense considering the world we live in...at least to those who don't yet believe.
When you study different religions, from the perspective of the God of Israel, you are studying different gods and that makes Him very angry. Forget the others and focus on Him. Most Christians are educated in the faith but at some point in time in their lives it has to become real to them. I don't know what the catalyst is exactly. I think it may be different for each person. For me, it was experiencing a lot of garbage in life and really needing Him so I threw myself down in desperation and hope and begged Him to make Himself real in my life.
Here's what God wants from you as an adult. He wants you to go back to being a child with childlike faith that has nothing to do with logic. If you came here looking to dig your heels in against Him and those of us who follow Him, that's one thing but if you came here looking for answers, then that would be His answer to you if you're willing to hear it and step up to the plate.
Take one small step of childlike, illogical faith and see if He does not meet that step. When He does, and He will, take another and so forth. It's your choice. How bad do you want to connect with Him?

 

[Town Heretic]

I think as a child I didn't have a strong view. I was prepared to accept there may be 'something'. As years went by I studied more investigated different religions. Eventually concluding that none have more validity than others. To me the only logical conclusion is atheism.

By that token if you interviewed a hundred witnesses to an accident (the cars long having been towed and the street swept and repaired) and found as you will among men only the most general of agreement on particulars, you would conclude it reasonable to believe no such accident occurred.

And you'd be wrong.

 

[TheTB]

Wasn't my qualifier!

Wasn't my qualifier!

Undeniable. Why do you need the qualifier? Its because proof can be different to different people. But you can always deny. Its meaningless unless you lay out a standard that would constitute proof to you.

Go ahead and try to prove evolution to me. I can just deny what you present. Maybe I'll go to an evolution forum and it'll be cute of me to demand proof and just deny, deny, deny. What kind of person would I be if I did that? The best word I can come up with is pathetic.

So I'm skeptical of atheists who show up saying they want rational honest debate. Its been done before a thousand times and its boring.

Hi,

I dont need he qualifier. I was simply reflecting the words chosen by the previously poster....

No worries on that queue, i'm not God - and also not thinking you're at a place yet where you want the truth at all costs either.

Lets check:

If you had undeniable proof that the God of the bible was the real and only God and that everything in the bible was accurate the way we "fundies" present it all, would you drop everything and follow Him?

Or would you say something like " a God like that is not worthy of my worship"

I assume you don't seriously deny evolution?

My reason for being here is to gain understanding of how/ why religious people believe as they do. For me as an Athiest I honestly do not understand how religious people come to settle on their beliefs. I know how I arrive at mine. I am not here to have debates but I do like open and challenging discussion. You have your views, I have mine. I doubt I'll change yours, and I doubt you will change mine. But gaining a better understanding each other I think is reasonable and useful objective.

Robert.

 

[IMJerusha]

By that token if you interviewed a hundred witnesses to an accident (the cars long having been towed and the street swept and repaired) and found as you will among men only the most general of agreement on particulars, you would conclude it reasonable to believe no such accident occurred.

And you'd be wrong.

Reminds me of a skit Taylor Mason does. His college professor said, "Based upon what you've learned in philosophy, prove to me this stool does not exist." Taylor's response was "What stool?"
Man is totally capable of willing away God but that doesn't mean He doesn't exist.

 

[lovemeorhateme]

Hello everyone,

I am Robert from the Isle of Wight in the UK. A small island of the south coast of England.

I am an Athiest and have a keen interest in honest, rational discussion of religion, and why people feel the need for a god or gods.

I am not a particularly skilled debator so I tend not to try as I lack the literary skills to properly defend my views. However I am interested to engage in honest and open discussion on religion and religious views.

As a person who considers proof to be a reasonable requirement before I am satisfied that something exists or is correct I find the whole concept of faith to be completely alien to me.

I will endeavour to abide by the rules of the forums and would delight in engaging with anyone who feels they would like to discuss their beliefs with someone who may challenge them.

Thanks for having me on board.

Robert.

:wave2:

Hi from a fellow Brit! Are you sure you're not somehow related to Alwight?

Anyhow, being British myself I guess in politics we may well agree on some things, but being a Christian I am certain there are many more things we will disagree on.

That being said, I try to be as nice as I can to everyone I come across - whether we agree or not. Welcome to TOL.

 

[TheTB]

Car accident.

Car accident.

By that token if you interviewed a hundred witnesses to an accident (the cars long having been towed and the street swept and repaired) and found as you will among men only the most general of agreement on particulars, you would conclude it reasonable to believe no such accident occurred.

And you'd be wrong.

A curious analogy but ill try to run with it...

Presumably the 100 witnesses to said accident would confirm that the accident had occurred. So my conclusion also would be that the accident had occurred. If the particulars were at great variance I would probably conclude that the accident occurred in accordance with the description which the majority of concurring accounts described. And if there was no concurrence in the accounts I would conclude that an accident occurred but we do not know the particulars.

If I return to the various world religions the difficulty for me is that I can find no evidence that any of them should have any more credibility over another.

If I ask a Muslim he will tell me that Allah is the one true god and the qu'ran is his sacred infallible text; to a Christian I would find the similar response and so on. Hindus, sikh's, pagans, all sincere in their beliefs and their respective gods.

So sitting as an outsider wanting to adopt a religion, which one should I choose? Buddhism seems to have a lot going for it. Does that make it the right one?

Robert

 

[Yorzhik]

Hello everyone,

I am Robert from the Isle of Wight in the UK. A small island of the south coast of England.

I am an Athiest and have a keen interest in honest, rational discussion of religion, and why people feel the need for a god or gods.

I am not a particularly skilled debator so I tend not to try as I lack the literary skills to properly defend my views. However I am interested to engage in honest and open discussion on religion and religious views.

As a person who considers proof to be a reasonable requirement before I am satisfied that something exists or is correct I find the whole concept of faith to be completely alien to me.

I will endeavour to abide by the rules of the forums and would delight in engaging with anyone who feels they would like to discuss their beliefs with someone who may challenge them.

Thanks for having me on board.

Robert.

Welcome.

I think the atheist position is interesting. Or rather, how people get that way is interesting.

 

[Yorzhik]

I think as a child I didn't have a strong view. I was prepared to accept there may be 'something'. As years went by I studied more investigated different religions. Eventually concluding that none have more validity than others. To me the only logical conclusion is atheism.

This one is starting to smell like a government school path. Coupled with the closed view of the nature of God?

 

[TheTB]

:wave2:

Hi from a fellow Brit! Are you sure you're not somehow related to Alwight?

Anyhow, being British myself I guess in politics we may well agree on some things, but being a Christian I am certain there are many more things we will disagree on.

That being said, I try to be as nice as I can to everyone I come across - whether we agree or not. Welcome to TOL.

Hi there,

Being on the IOW we probably share the same genes! but seriously though I do not know who alwight is.

I to try be nice to everyone I meet too. I generally try to be a good person and treat people as I would like to be treated. Perhaps I am a closet Christian in the Athiest ranks. we probably have more in common than we realise.

Good to see another Brit here. Perhaps when we get bored with our religious stalemate we can have a good go at our politicians instead.

Cheers

Robert

 

[Town Heretic]

A curious analogy but ill try to run with it...

As an attorney I've interviewed and cross examined numbers of people involved in a crime or accident. I've noticed remarkable differences between people who were present for the event. When people start processing and recalling they have a habit of interjecting their lens.

Presumably the 100 witnesses to said accident would confirm that the accident had occurred.

Just as all those who believe in God confirm His existence in their experience of Him.

So my conclusion also would be that the accident had occurred.

Glad to have you aboard the theist train then. Now we only need speak of the particular car.

If I return to the various world religions the difficulty for me is that I can find no evidence that any of them should have any more credibility over another.

You just changed your standard. The parallel with the accident would be nothing more than a wide variance on how they saw it, the color of the cars, who hit who first, that sort of thing. And establishing credibility among witnesses is always a time consuming and subjective process. But if it's important to know who caused the accident, how it happened, then you wade in and do the work.

If I ask a Muslim he will tell me that Allah is the one true god and the qu'ran is his sacred infallible text; to a Christian I would find the similar response and so on. Hindus, sikh's, pagans, all sincere in their beliefs and their respective gods.

Sounds right.

So sitting as an outsider wanting to adopt a religion, which one should I choose? Buddhism seems to have a lot going for it. Does that make it the right one?

No, depending on what sect. I think any religion that doesn't reconcile human nature, that argues for self perfection loses in the opening round for a number of reasons I'd be happy to get into you with, as time permits (I have a two year old son who gets first call on my time these days).


:e4e:

 

[TheTB]

You may be right.

You may be right.

This one is starting to smell like a government school path. Coupled with the closed view of the nature of God?

You may be right. But a good Athiest friend of mine was schooled by catholic nuns. I don't know what that smells like.

 

[Lon]

If I ask a Muslim he will tell me that Allah is the one true god and the qu'ran is his sacred infallible text; to a Christian I would find the similar response and so on. Hindus, sikh's, pagans, all sincere in their beliefs and their respective gods.

So sitting as an outsider wanting to adopt a religion, which one should I choose? Buddhism seems to have a lot going for it. Does that make it the right one?

Robert

Yes, but once again, the 'consensus' of majority is that a God exists. "What kind of a God is He?" is a question after establishing fact #one. In this case, Town is right, because the analogy deems that it is 'reasonable' to assume an accident did occur. If you are a lawyer, you want the accident to have occurred, but such is coincidental (too many lame arguments go the route that because I want there to be an accident, there is an imaginary one :dizzy. I'm starting to just repeat Town H now. "Ignore the man behind this curtain!".....I'll watch opcorn:

 

[Yorzhik]

The Flying Spaghetti Monster thing is of course a distraction and we are drifting from the point a bit. We all know it doesn't exist. It is a ridiculous suggestion of course. But the principle of this supernatural being existing outside space and time is just the same as for any other deity with exactly the same substantiable evidence for it any other. I can't prove it doesn't exist though. But for anyone who is actually bonkers enough to believe in and follow the doctrine of the FSM, their belief and commitment would probably be as real to them as yours is to you.

Ah, closed view. OK.

 

[Yorzhik]

You may be right. But a good Athiest friend of mine was schooled by catholic nuns. I don't know what that smells like.

It smells different, that's for sure. At least I like being right.

 

[TheTB]

Interesting.

Interesting.

Welcome.

I think the atheist position is interesting. Or rather, how people get that way is interesting.

Excellent, we have superb starting point. We are both interested in each other.

I was schooled in a Christian school, forced to sing hymns, listen to bible readings, taught that the Christian god was the one true god. Basically had Christianity rammed down my throat from about e age of 4.

My father was probably Athiest but possibly agnostic. In any case he did nothing to support the specific teaching of the school. I then started to actually read the bible. The I read the more contradictions I found, the factual errors and then some outright sick and evil stuff. Murder, rape and genocide are routinely condoned and positively encouraged.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)


"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)


Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

The list of entries like this goes on and on and on with god ordering genocide, rape, pillage murder and sacrifice.

It came clear to me that this is not a book written by a divine entity but justification by murderous power hungry megalomaniacs for their brutal and savage behaviour.

I find no useful explaination of the natural world.

Wen I turn to science I find explaination, reason and proof for the claims it makes. I can test any scientific claim to my own satisfaction and can demonstrate the same to those around me. I could pass an electic current through a coil and an atheist, agnostic, Christian and Muslim would all agree with that the coil got hot. There is no ambiguity here.

Suddenly the world starts to make sense. The more I demand evidence, the more sense it makes.

This is a brief explaination for how it started for me that I became an Athiest. I didn't reject god, he just wasn't there.

 

[TheTB]

Closed?

Closed?

Ah, closed view. OK.

Not really. Show me the evidence and ill believe.

 

[Spectrox War]

The Flying Spaghetti Monster thing is of course a distraction and we are drifting from the point a bit. We all know it doesn't exist. It is a ridiculous suggestion of course. .

How dare you speak against the Great FSM? I have been touched by his noodly appendages and bathed in his Holy Sauce.

I used to be a Spagnostic but my local Pasta convinced me of the truth!

 

[TheTB]

Connecting

Connecting

So, as a child you had your strongest faith and that makes sense. God is not going to respond to anything but faith. Faith isn't logical either. It makes absolutely no sense considering the world we live in...at least to those who don't yet believe.
When you study different religions, from the perspective of the God of Israel, you are studying different gods and that makes Him very angry. Forget the others and focus on Him. Most Christians are educated in the faith but at some point in time in their lives it has to become real to them. I don't know what the catalyst is exactly. I think it may be different for each person. For me, it was experiencing a lot of garbage in life and really needing Him so I threw myself down in desperation and hope and begged Him to make Himself real in my life.
Here's what God wants from you as an adult. He wants you to go back to being a child with childlike faith that has nothing to do with logic. If you came here looking to dig your heels in against Him and those of us who follow Him, that's one thing but if you came here looking for answers, then that would be His answer to you if you're willing to hear it and step up to the plate.
Take one small step of childlike, illogical faith and see if He does not meet that step. When He does, and He will, take another and so forth. It's your choice. How bad do you want to connect with Him?

Hi,

If I'm honest I have to say I have no compelling desire to make contact with god. I don't feel any need to connect with god or indeed any compelling reason to consider that a god may exist. Indeed quite the opposite. Everything life has shown me thus far indicates that there is no god nor any good reason to believe that there is one.

Example: Fritzel. God, if he exists could have stopped this evil at any time. Instead these poor women suffered rape and imprisonment for 20 odd years.

Example: Burmah. Murder, rape, brutalisation on a massive scale going on every day.

Example: Cancer. Millions of people dying slow painful deaths.

I could go on and on and on.

None of things are necessary. A divine caring god could stop these things . Yet they continue day after day.

I can imagine anything I want, it might even feel good, but that doesn't make it real.

Also why do I have to go to him? Why doesn't he come to me? Perhaps he doesn't like me. I don't want to go back to being a child. I've been there, done that, i grew up and I like who I am.
And i am very happy with how i see the world and interpret it. if god wants me he will have to come to as I am. If that's not good enough for him then my life is no worse for it.

I'm here waiting for him. My door is always open and if he comes in for a chat ill let you know.

Best wishes

Robert

 

[Yorzhik]

Excellent, we have superb starting point. We are both interested in each other.

I was schooled in a Christian school, forced to sing hymns, listen to bible readings, taught that the Christian god was the one true god. Basically had Christianity rammed down my throat from about e age of 4.

I was wrong. I would have guessed gov't school.

My father was probably Athiest but possibly agnostic. In any case he did nothing to support the specific teaching of the school. I then started to actually read the bible. The I read the more contradictions I found, the factual errors and then some outright sick and evil stuff. Murder, rape and genocide are routinely condoned and positively encouraged.

I'm beginning to feel your bias may be too strong to have a reasonable conversation.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)


"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)


Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

The list of entries like this goes on and on and on with god ordering genocide, rape, pillage murder and sacrifice.

You aren't showing any genocide, rape, pillage, murder or human sacrifice with the passages just mentioned. Were the passages supposed to have something to do with your conclusion?

It came clear to me that this is not a book written by a divine entity but justification by murderous power hungry megalomaniacs for their brutal and savage behaviour.

That makes no sense in the light of the bible going against our baser natures. Marrying one wife, not lording over others, giving women property, being kind to one's enemies.

I find no useful explaination of the natural world.

Wen I turn to science I find explaination, reason and proof for the claims it makes. I can test any scientific claim to my own satisfaction and can demonstrate the same to those around me. I could pass an electic current through a coil and an atheist, agnostic, Christian and Muslim would all agree with that the coil got hot. There is no ambiguity here.

Suddenly the world starts to make sense. The more I demand evidence, the more sense it makes.

Well then, as science shows, "mutation plus natural selection" cannot be the main driver of evolution. Especially with the time frames claimed to be involved. Every atheist, agnostic, Christian and Muslim can agree on that.

This is a brief explaination for how it started for me that I became an Athiest. I didn't reject god, he just wasn't there.

Ok. We can explore that. I guess the initial question to ask is do you assume I believe God exists because I'm irrational?