ECT Grace is unconditional but not universal

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Sonnet

Sonnet

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intojoy said:
T total depravity does not mean that all men are as bad as they can be, rather that sin has touched every part of man. That means that if left to himself man cannot and will not seek God.

U unlimited atonement means that the work of the cross rendered all men savable.

I irresistible grace means that those whom God calls can not reject the call. There is a general call to faith given to all men but there is also an effectual call upon those whom God has predestined to life eternal.

P perseverance of God. It is due to God's faithfulness and not man's perseverance that none can be lost once they have been saved.

Limited atonement is not supported by scripture.

Perseverance of the saints violates the principle of justification by grace alone thru faith alone in Christ alone plus nothing.

Thx for asking


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Contradiction:
Unlimited atonement means that the work of the cross rendered all men savable.

Irresistible grace means that those whom God calls can not reject the call. There is a general call to faith given to all men but there is also an effectual call upon those whom God has predestined to life eternal.

So all men are savable but only those called are saved?
I think you mean your view is that not all men are savable.
 
Sonnet

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The bronze serpent was lifted up for all those dying from having being bitten by the snakes God sent in judgement. Provision is for all - a real offer even for those that might have decided not to look.

Jesus uses this analogy in describing His own crucifixion.




The OP is false since Jesus clearly teaches provision for all.
 
intojoy

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Sonnet said:
Contradiction:
Unlimited atonement means that the work of the cross rendered all men savable.

Irresistible grace means that those whom God calls can not reject the call. There is a general call to faith given to all men but there is also an effectual call upon those whom God has predestined to life eternal.

So all men are savable but only those called are saved?
I think you mean your view is that not all men are savable.
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That's the antinomy isn't it?


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Cross Reference

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intojoy said:
Let me try and explain what Paul teaches here.

God has a universal principle that anyone seeking God will be given light to believe.

For the barbarian he has the ability to recognize God's existence thru the light God reveals in creation.

If the savage responds to the light given in creation (by burning his idols) God will give him more light by stirring up mr. Jones from London who has never heard of the place the native is at but gets a burden from God to go there and evangelize.

Eventually Jones shows up at this naked native's hut and shares the gospel and he gets saved.

That's it.

Those used in my example are an example of a people where no one responded to the light given thru creation and died unsaved. This they had hope but rejected it for devil worship.
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And what happens if mr. jones doesn't show up; if no one shows up??
 
Cross Reference

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=intojoy;4723453
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"Sonnet;4723424]Interesting but did anyone - did a person preach to Abraham?"

Abraham had access to the written documents that Moses used to edit the book of Genesis.
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That would have been nice except, Abraham was 500+/- years before Moses.

Abraham heard the voice of God.
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Abraham believed for God in his life before God ever spoke to him.

No one hears God's audible voice today.
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How do you know that?
 
Cross Reference

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intojoy said:
That's the antinomy isn't it?
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Cain, the sons of God before the flood, Saul, David and Jonah rejected God's will by going against it and God simply made them willing to be willing or outright destroyed them. That is the way God does things . . . . and by His foreknowledge, performs it. We can read the cost in the context of each encounter and hopefully . . LEARN.
 
TulipBee

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Sonnet said:
Then you will easily prove why John 3:14-16 means something else.

So far you haven't done so.
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intojoy

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Cross Reference said:
"Sonnet;4723424]Interesting but did anyone - did a person preach to Abraham?"



That would have been nice except, Abraham was 500+/- years before Moses.



Abraham believed for God in his life before God ever spoke to him.



How do you know that?
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“Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.”
**1 Corinthians‬ *4:6‬ *ASV‬‬
http://bible.com/12/1co.4.6.asv


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Eagles Wings

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Sonnet said:
Pretty familiar.

I'm interested to know about this barbarian who seemingly does a good work before regeneration.
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Then you would have read a clear and concise teaching on Total Depravity. Excellent!

The barbarian scenario is between you and other poster.
 
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