God Predestinates Billions To Hell Before They Are Born ???

[jamie]

The second death is eternal punishment.

True, in Hebrews 6:1-2 it says, "Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ let us go on to perfection not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."

Eternal judgment does not mean eternal life.

An example of eternal judgment: And I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you. All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you, you have become a horror and shall be no more forever. (Ezekiel 28:18-19)

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Robert Pate's Personal Definition of Predestination

Robert Pate's Personal Definition of Predestination

What a terrible thing to believe about God.

The Bible teaches no such thing.

Those that have their personal definition of predestination will always claim the Bible teaches no such thing, Robert.

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...redestinated&p=4851757&viewfull=1#post4851757

AMR

 

[Crucible]

God Predestinates Billions To Hell Before They Are Born ???

No matter how many times you go over it with anti-Calvinists, they will simply rehash it over.. and over.. and over.

You're all like feminists- as long as falsehoods keep you relevant, you'll just keep on spouting them no matter how many times they are shown to be falsehoods.

 

[Robert Pate]

Those that have their personal definition of predestination will always claim the Bible teaches no such thing, Robert.

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...redestinated&p=4851757&viewfull=1#post4851757

AMR

You oppose anything that refutes your Calvinist God.

There is no God that predestinates people to hell before they are born.

You have no scripture to prove that he does. All that you have are the words of a heretic.

 

[Robert Pate]

No matter how many times you go over it with anti-Calvinists, they will simply rehash it over.. and over.. and over.

You're all like feminists- as long as falsehoods keep you relevant, you'll just keep on spouting them no matter how many times they are shown to be falsehoods.

The doctrine that God predestinates people to hell before they are born is the doctrine of demons. It was designed by the devil himself to cause people to lose faith in God and his Son Jesus Christ. You have apparently swallowed this doctrine hook, line and sinker.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Robert Cannot Extricate Himself From Predestination

Robert Cannot Extricate Himself From Predestination

You oppose anything that refutes your Calvinist God.

There is no God that predestinates people to hell before they are born.

You have no scripture to prove that he does. All that you have are the words of a heretic.

Robert,

No matter how you reformulate the doctrine of predestination, you cannot escape it.

Let's examine your own words.

It is your view, Robert, that God chose certain qualities or properties of persons—faith, repentance, holiness—with a purpose of admitting to heaven all those, whoever they might be, that possess or exhibit these qualities or properties. It is also your view that God consigns to eternal punishment all those who, after having been so favored with suitable opportunities, who then fail to exhibit these personal qualities.

Note carefully here what your words describe about your beliefs: that it is man who is responsible for his own salvation, which is why you make the following claims:

You and you alone are responsible for your sins. And you and you alone are responsible for your salvation.

In other words, per your own claims, all mankind possess within themselves and wholly by themselves the ability to choose wisely. Accordingly, the person who chooses wisely is granted admittance to the Kingdom. The person who does not, is consigned to eternal punishment. No matter how much you deny predestination as a Scriptural concept, you cannot escape the plain fact that you have actually created a version of predestination.

In summary, Robert, you are claiming that God has declared that those that will exhibit inherent personal qualities given to all mankind, such as faith and repentance, will be saved. It necessarily follows then that God has declared that all those in possession of these inherent personal qualities who choose not to exhibit these qualities will be damned.

Robert, I assume you will admit that God knows who will or will not exhibit these personal qualities. So unless you are going to compound your errors by claiming God has no idea who will or will not choose wisely, thereby placing yourself within the open theist camp, then your view is a view about predestination...albeit your own personal version. So why are you continually complaining that there is no such thing as predestination? Why not simply state that you believe predestination means God's knowledge of who will or will not choose wisely according to their own personal abilities? Is this not your view?

Rather than waving my off my responses, how about you actually explain where I have failed to accurately capture your views in my explanations above and see where the discussion will lead?

It would be better that you plainly state what you believe, rather than claiming there is no such thing as predestination, despite the teachings of the full counsel of Scripture.

For the record, what follows is what I believe on this topic of predestination we are discussing. I am confident that there is ample evidence from Scripture that predestination should be embraced because Our Lord and the apostles frequently taught it, as it appears from in the Gospels, e.g., Matthew 11:20, 25; 13:11; 25:34; Luke 10:20; 12:32; John 8:47; 15:16 and in other places. Predestination is also is taught from the epistles of Paul, the whole of Rom. 9 and Rom. 8:29, 30; Eph. 1:4, 5; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 Thess. 5:9; 2 Thess. 2:13. Further, Peter, James and John express themselves who speak repeatedly of the mystery of predestination whenever occasion offered.

So if it was proper for Our Lord and the Apostles to teach predestination, why is it not proper for us to learn it? Why should God teach what would have been better not spoken about? Why did God wish to proclaim those things which it would be better not to know? Do we wish to be more prudent than God or to prescribe rules to God? I hope not. Predestination is part and parcel of Scripture and we should not run from what Scripture has to teach us about the matter.

The real issue should be what one believes about this term, predestination, to mean, rather than your constant claim that Scripture has nothing to say about the matter.

It is my view that God...
- predestines some to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30);
- predestines some to adoption (Eph. 1:5);
- predestines some according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11);
- chooses exactly who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4);
- chooses some for salvation (2 Thes. 2:13-14);
- appoints some to believe (Acts 13:48);
- draws some to Himself (John 6:44,65);
- calls those so chosen according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9);
- creates in those so chosen a clean heart (Psalm 51:10);
- causes those so chosen to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3);
- grants in those so chosen the act of believing (Phil. 1:29);
- works faith in these believers (John 6:28-29);
- grants repentance in these believers (2 Tim. 2:24-26); and
- makes those born again not by their will but by His will (John 1:12-13).

From the above, it should be clear that I assign all credit for my ultimate salvation to God and God alone. There is nothing I could have done, in and of my own abilities, to merit my salvation. I was unable to choose wisely, for in my fallen state I possessed no ability to apprehend faith and repentance. In my terrible state, if God had not first acted upon me, I would have remained in my sins. Any righteousness I might lay claim to, is an alien righteousness[FONT=&quot]—[/FONT]that of another, My Lord[FONT=&quot]—and not my own.[/FONT]

Robert, unless and until you can adequately explain your views as I have summarized them above, your view is nothing new—that all have within them the power to choose wisely—for your view has been sadly summarized to be equivalent to the following prayer:

“Lord, I thank thee that I am not like these poor, presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free will; I was born with a power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace as I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know that thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves… it was not thy grace that made us differ… I made use of what was given me, and others did not—that is the difference between me and them.”​

Src: Spurgeon, Sermon on John 5:40 “Free Will a Slave” The New Park Street Pulpit, 1855- 1856, Volumes I & II (Pilgrim 1975), 395-402.​

Is this a prayer you can be proud of, Robert? If you are not, then explain why it is an inaccurate summary of your own views by dissecting it phrase by phrase, and demonstrating where error has perhaps crept in.

AMR

 

[ttruscott]

No, that's double pre-destination and that's not what Calvinists teach.

Every person not predestined to heaven is ipso facto predestined to hell whether a Calvinist has the guts to say so or not.

 

[ttruscott]

What a terrible thing to believe about God.

GOD did not predestine our relationship with HIM before or after HE created us. We created our own relationship with HIM by our free will. This is how some became HIS legitimate children and were elected to be HIS heavenly Bride and some became HIS eternally evil enemies condemned already.


But when some of HIS elect chose to sin and were in jeopardy of being d*mned with the tares, the judgement had to be postponed until they were safe, that is, they were redeemed and made holy. To best fulfill HIS promise of election and salvation to HIS sinfully elect legitimate children, HE had every sinner live predetermined lives on earth, elect and reprobate together, predestined to fulfill their free will choice as HIS children or as HIS enemies before they died.

This is how our fates are our own responsibility yet the scripture can tell us we are predestined to heaven or not. Pre- means before but there is no need for it to mean before creation (a blasphemy) when it so easily can be seen to mean after our choices but before our births as humans without any blasphemy.

 

[Robert Pate]

Robert,

No matter how you reformulate the doctrine of predestination, you cannot escape it.

Let's examine your own words.

It is your view, Robert, that God chose certain qualities or properties of persons—faith, repentance, holiness—with a purpose of admitting to heaven all those, whoever they might be, that possess or exhibit these qualities or properties. It is also your view that God consigns to eternal punishment all those who, after having been so favored with suitable opportunities, who then fail to exhibit these personal qualities.

Note carefully here what your words describe about your beliefs: that it is man who is responsible for his own salvation, which is why you make the following claims:



In other words, per your own claims, all mankind possess within themselves and wholly by themselves the ability to choose wisely. Accordingly, the person who chooses wisely is granted admittance to the Kingdom. The person who does not, is consigned to eternal punishment. No matter how much you deny predestination as a Scriptural concept, you cannot escape the plain fact that you have actually created a version of predestination.

In summary, Robert, you are claiming that God has declared that those that will exhibit inherent personal qualities given to all mankind, such as faith and repentance, will be saved. It necessarily follows then that God has declared that all those in possession of these inherent personal qualities who choose not to exhibit these qualities will be damned.

Robert, I assume you will admit that God knows who will or will not exhibit these personal qualities. So unless you are going to compound your errors by claiming God has no idea who will or will not choose wisely, thereby placing yourself within the open theist camp, then your view is a view about predestination...albeit your own personal version. So why are you continually complaining that there is no such thing as predestination? Why not simply state that you believe predestination means God's knowledge of who will or will not choose wisely according to their own personal abilities? Is this not your view?

Rather than waving my off my responses, how about you actually explain where I have failed to accurately capture your views in my explanations above and see where the discussion will lead?

It would be better that you plainly state what you believe, rather than claiming there is no such thing as predestination, despite the teachings of the full counsel of Scripture.

For the record, what follows is what I believe on this topic of predestination we are discussing. I am confident that there is ample evidence from Scripture that predestination should be embraced because Our Lord and the apostles frequently taught it, as it appears from in the Gospels, e.g., Matthew 11:20, 25; 13:11; 25:34; Luke 10:20; 12:32; John 8:47; 15:16 and in other places. Predestination is also is taught from the epistles of Paul, the whole of Rom. 9 and Rom. 8:29, 30; Eph. 1:4, 5; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 Thess. 5:9; 2 Thess. 2:13. Further, Peter, James and John express themselves who speak repeatedly of the mystery of predestination whenever occasion offered.

So if it was proper for Our Lord and the Apostles to teach predestination, why is it not proper for us to learn it? Why should God teach what would have been better not spoken about? Why did God wish to proclaim those things which it would be better not to know? Do we wish to be more prudent than God or to prescribe rules to God? I hope not. Predestination is part and parcel of Scripture and we should not run from what Scripture has to teach us about the matter.

The real issue should be what one believes about this term, predestination, to mean, rather than your constant claim that Scripture has nothing to say about the matter.

It is my view that God...
- predestines some to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30);
- predestines some to adoption (Eph. 1:5);
- predestines some according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11);
- chooses exactly who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4);
- chooses some for salvation (2 Thes. 2:13-14);
- appoints some to believe (Acts 13:48);
- draws some to Himself (John 6:44,65);
- calls those so chosen according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9);
- creates in those so chosen a clean heart (Psalm 51:10);
- causes those so chosen to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3);
- grants in those so chosen the act of believing (Phil. 1:29);
- works faith in these believers (John 6:28-29);
- grants repentance in these believers (2 Tim. 2:24-26); and
- makes those born again not by their will but by His will (John 1:12-13).

From the above, it should be clear that I assign all credit for my ultimate salvation to God and God alone. There is nothing I could have done, in and of my own abilities, to merit my salvation. I was unable to choose wisely, for in my fallen state I possessed no ability to apprehend faith and repentance. In my terrible state, if God had not first acted upon me, I would have remained in my sins. Any righteousness I might lay claim to, is an alien righteousness[FONT="]—[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms]that of another, My Lord[/FONT][FONT="]—and not my own.[/FONT]

Robert, unless and until you can adequately explain your views as I have summarized them above, your view is nothing new—that all have within them the power to choose wisely—for your view has been sadly summarized to be equivalent to the following prayer:

“Lord, I thank thee that I am not like these poor, presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free will; I was born with a power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace as I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know that thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves… it was not thy grace that made us differ… I made use of what was given me, and others did not—that is the difference between me and them.”​

Src: Spurgeon, Sermon on John 5:40 “Free Will a Slave” The New Park Street Pulpit, 1855- 1856, Volumes I & II (Pilgrim 1975), 395-402.​

Is this a prayer you can be proud of, Robert? If you are not, then explain why it is an inaccurate summary of your own views by dissecting it phrase by phrase, and demonstrating where error has perhaps crept in.

AMR

There is no scripture that says God predestinates anyone to salvation. If that were true the Bible would be full of it. There is nothing.

On the day of Pentecost 8,000 Jews became Christians by hearing and believing the Gospel, Acts 2:41, Acts 4:4. This confirms what Paul wrote, "So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (Which is the Gospel) Romans 10:17.

There is no other way to be saved. Not by predestination. Not by good works. Not by anything that you believe or can do. Jesus has provided salvation for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. But nothing is yours until you receive it by faith, John 1:12.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No matter how you reformulate the doctrine of predestination, you cannot escape it.

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).​

This passage is saying that it is those who love God (the saved) who are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His son. And that will happen when believers will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and put on bodies just like His glorious body:

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21).​

The following verse is also speaking of the same destiny of those who are already saved:

"Having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph.1:5).​

That is the same "adoption" that is in regard to the redemption of the body:

"And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" (Ro.8:23).​

The following verse is also referring to the same exact thing:

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Eph.1:11).​

Just two verses later we learn more about this inheritance" to which the saved of this present dispensation have been ordained:

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" (Eph.1:13-14).​

The redemption of the purchased possession will happen on the day of redemption and the purchased possession is our new, glorious body:

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption...the redemption of our body" (Eph.4:30; Ro.8:23).​

So we can understand that the verses which use the word "predestinate" in regard to a person's destiny are not speaking of anyone being predestinated to heaven.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Double Predestination is NOT Equal Ultimacy

Double Predestination is NOT Equal Ultimacy

Every person not predestined to heaven is ipso facto predestined to hell whether a Calvinist has the guts to say so or not.

No one disputes this, so possessing intestinal fortitude is not an issue on the matter. No Calvinist or Reformed believer denies it. I suspect you are confused on what the term actually means.

The issue that confuses some is what is termed equal ultimacy. God does not act in the same way for those elected unto salvation and those not elected unto salvation.

For more see here:

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/double-predestination/

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Robert Pate Again Refuses to Engage

Robert Pate Again Refuses to Engage

There is no scripture that says God predestinates anyone to salvation. If that were true the Bible would be full of it. There is nothing.

On the day of Pentecost 8,000 Jews became Christians by hearing and believing the Gospel, Acts 2:41, Acts 4:4. This confirms what Paul wrote, "So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (Which is the Gospel) Romans 10:17.

There is no other way to be saved. Not by predestination. Not by good works. Not by anything that you believe or can do. Jesus has provided salvation for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. But nothing is yours until you receive it by faith, John 1:12.

Sigh.

I provided a detailed response on the matter, Robert, including a request that you directly interact with my response as it relates to your specific views. Yet, you again refuse to engage at a substantive level. Accordingly, I must assume that you agree my summary of your position was accurate.

Why is it that you prefer to only assert via blog-like posts, refusing to engage your interlocutor on the specifics? Is your foundational system of beliefs so sandy that you cannot defend them? Please review my post. Break my detailed response down into bite-size portions and interact with each, laying out where and why you disagree.

Let me help you get started. In my post I stated that your view is basically...

...[FONT=&quot]that God chose certain qualities or properties of persons—faith, repentance, holiness—with a purpose of admitting to heaven all those, whoever they might be, that possess or exhibit these qualities or properties. It is also your view that God consigns to eternal punishment all those who, after having been so favored with suitable opportunities, who then fail to exhibit these personal qualities.

Is this an accurate summary? If not, please explain.
[/FONT]
AMR

 

[beloved57]

Pate

There is no God that predestinates people to hell before they are born.

Yes it is. The God of Israel does, the God gou hate.

 

[Robert Pate]

Pate


Yes it is. The God of Israel does, the God gou hate.

You have been brain washed by a heretic.

 

[Robert Pate]

Sigh.

I provided a detailed response on the matter, Robert, including a request that you directly interact with my response as it relates to your specific views. Yet, you again refuse to engage at a substantive level. Accordingly, I must assume that you agree my summary of your position was accurate.

Why is it that you prefer to only assert via blog-like posts, refusing to engage your interlocutor on the specifics? Is your foundational system of beliefs so sandy that you cannot defend them? Please review my post. Break my detailed response down into bite-size portions and interact with each, laying out where and why you disagree.

Let me help you get started. In my post I stated that your view is basically...



Is this an accurate summary? If not, please explain.
[/FONT]
AMR

The only ones that are going to heaven are those that believe that Jesus has atoned for their sins and the sins of the whole world.

I guess that leaves you out.

 

[KingdomRose]

In reply to the first post: That IS a terrible thing to accuse God of!!!

 

[Robert Pate]

In reply to the first post: That IS a terrible thing to accuse God of!!!

That is not what I believe, it is what Calvinist believe.

 

[KingdomRose]

In reply to post #3: Those are NOT God's ways!

"Far be it from the true God to act wickedly, and the Almighty to act unjustly!" (Job 34:10)

 

[beloved57]

You have been brain washed by a heretic.

You hate on and blaspheme God here daily !

 

[Robert Pate]

In reply to post #3: Those are NOT God's ways!

"Far be it from the true God to act wickedly, and the Almighty to act unjustly!" (Job 34:10)

Calvinist avoid scriptures like that. They want to believe that God is an unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous tyrant that delights in sending people to hell. They don't have faith in God, nor do they have faith in Jesus Christ.