God made them the vessels of wrath !

[ttruscott]

ESV
"I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things."
Old King James mistranslated and you misunderstood.

I suspect the KJV translated it with proper intent, not knowing that later generations would reject the meaning of evil as calamity / disaster and, being forced by their new fangled theology, chose ra` to mean moral evil. <sigh>

 

[MennoSota]

I suspect the KJV translated it with proper intent, not knowing that later generations would reject the meaning of evil as calamity / disaster and, being forced by their new fangled theology, chose ra` to mean moral evil. <sigh>

I suspect KJV only people to be lunatics...[emoji41]

 

[oatmeal]

Rom 9:20-22

[FONT=&]20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
[/FONT]
[FONT=&]21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[/FONT]
[FONT=&]22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

I know this is a subject that is most distasteful to proud human flesh, but the scripture does teach that God made some people to be vessels of wrath, and He fits them for destruction, which destruction will be everlasting !

These same vessels of wrath are mentioned in Proverbs, Prov 16:4

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for[denoting purpose] the day of evil.


These are people outside of Gods election of grace Rom 11:5,7

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Those not of the election of grace, are termed the rest which are blinded

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.


If they're excluded from being of the election of grace, they are excluded from being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4[/FONT]

When, oh God, will people learn to read what you had written instead of reading their theology into your words?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Where does it say in that verse that

"that God made some people to be vessels of wrath"

For instance, Did God cause Pharaoh to rebel against God and Moses?

No, not directly, but when someone is presented with the truth there are three possible responses.

1. believing

2. indifference or neutrality or moderation

3. unbelief or rejection of the truth

God is not the source of evil but some people willfully reject God, and truth and God's goodness to their own destruction

 

[Aimiel]

Yes, I agree that the verse can be interpreted this way and make GOD the author of moral evil as many (so called?) Christians believe. This evil creating God is very powerful, eh?, while the GOD who cannot make evil seems to be at his mercy....? But the fact that ra` has a dozen or more OTHER INTERPRETATIONS that exonerate YHWH from creating moral evil means that your focus on the god who creates moral evil to be suspect of being the product of a huge bias! Straw dog, buddy.

Okay, believe what you want. I see Scripture clearly teaching otherwise. Calamity is evil. God created it. He didn't sin. He created light, the darkness is there, nonetheless. He could have created a universe where evil didn't exist. He didn't. He created one where there is such a thing for a reason, obviously. We couldn't see Him by faith as Holy, Just and Perfect, if He hadn't. We would presume that we are all there is and never have any need of Him. He created the need and fills it perfectly.

 

[beloved57]

When, oh God, will people learn to read what you had written instead of reading their theology into your words?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Where does it say in that verse that

For instance, Did God cause Pharaoh to rebel against God and Moses?

No, not directly, but when someone is presented with the truth there are three possible responses.

1. believing

2. indifference or neutrality or moderation

3. unbelief or rejection of the truth

God is not the source of evil but some people willfully reject God, and truth and God's goodness to their own destruction

Rejection of truth then rabbit trail.

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk

 

[ttruscott]

Okay, believe what you want. I see Scripture clearly teaching otherwise. Calamity is evil. God created it. He didn't sin.

Calamity is NOT evil, it is a righteous and just response to the evil created by HIS creation.

He could have created a universe where evil didn't exist. He didn't.

HE most certainly did create a reality where evil didn't exist ! though in HIS reality HE did allow for evil to be created by giving everyone created in HIS image a free will able to choose to be eternal righteous or eternally evil.

He created one where there is such a thing for a reason, obviously.

Of course there was a reason - HE needed us to accept HIS marriage proposal, to be HIS bride, by our free will or neither true love nor a true marriage is possible. BUT HE DID NOT NEED EVIL for any reason whatsoever. If everyone had chosen by their free will to put their faith in HIM then the heavenly marriage would have started IN THAT INSTANT, NO EVIL, NO NEED FOR ANYONE TO DIE.

Evil destroys HIS purpose for our creation, our marriage to HIM...IT DOES NOT FULFILL IT!!!

We couldn't see Him by faith as Holy, Just and Perfect, if He hadn't.

We live by faith, NOT PROOF!!!

We would presume that we are all there is and never have any need of Him. He created the need and fills it perfectly.

Unproven theo-babble. The holy angels were holy, ie perfectly committed to HIM BEFORE Adam sinned! They did not need to see, eat or experience evil to know HIS goodness and justice and to put their faith in HIM - they believed HIS goodness!!

Even if you are right then why did HE create billions to be evil and end in hell? Would not one be enough to prove HIS goodness? Does the holy perfect GOD really need evil to prove HIS goodness because goodness cannot prove itself? Puleese... It would seem that if you are right then GOD puts very little value on the lives and sufferings of a great part of HIS creation...

 

[Aimiel]

Calamity is NOT evil, it is a righteous and just response to the evil created by HIS creation.

Calamity is evil, by definition. You're fogging and being facetious.

HE most certainly did create a reality where evil didn't exist !

Only in your imaginary universe.

though in HIS reality HE did allow for evil to be created by giving everyone created in HIS image a free will able to choose to be eternal righteous or eternally evil.

If evil wasn't present, it couldn't appear out of thin air... God is The Only Creator. There is no magic. You are simply glossing over the facts.

Of course there was a reason - HE needed us to accept HIS marriage proposal, to be HIS bride, by our free will or neither true love nor a true marriage is possible. BUT HE DID NOT NEED EVIL for any reason whatsoever.

Then: it would not exist.

If everyone had chosen by their free will to put their faith in HIM then the heavenly marriage would have started IN THAT INSTANT, NO EVIL, NO NEED FOR ANYONE TO DIE.

So, before He created a universe, no evil, so there IS no evil, right? Or is Satan a creator in your imaginary universe?

Evil destroys HIS purpose for our creation, our marriage to HIM...IT DOES NOT FULFILL IT!!!

It was designed to point out our NEED for Him, obviously.

We live by faith, NOT PROOF!!!

Yes, but faith wouldn't be necessary without evil.

Unproven theo-babble.

I think that a lot, when I read what you write.

The holy angels were holy, ie perfectly committed to HIM BEFORE Adam sinned!

No. Satan sinned, long before Adam was created.

They did not need to see, eat or experience evil to know HIS goodness and justice and to put their faith in HIM - they believed HIS goodness!!

They never believed, having seen. They SAW His Goodness, and still fell from grace.

Even if you are right then why did HE create billions to be evil and end in hell?

He would have to answer that. He did say that they were created for destruction.

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Would not one be enough to prove HIS goodness? Does the holy perfect GOD really need evil to prove HIS goodness because goodness cannot prove itself? Puleese... It would seem that if you are right then GOD puts very little value on the lives and sufferings of a great part of HIS creation...

ibid

 

[FineLinen]

“The Lord knows how to rescue/deliver the godly out of temptation and to reserve the unrighteous unto the day of judgement to be punished…” -2 Peter 2:9-

Punishment=Kolasis

Kolasis=

Correction.

Punishment.

Penalty.

Kolasis Rooted In Kolazo

Kolazo=

To lop or prune, as trees and wings.

To curb, check, restrain.

To chastise. To correct. Punishment .

To cause to be punished.

Correction=

Alteration that improves: An alteration that removes an error.

Punishment meant to improve: Punishment, especially meant to improve or reform the person punished.

Law treatment of offenders: The system of dealing with criminals by improvement, rehabilitation, parole, probation.

Treatment of a specific defect.

The act of offering an improvement to replace a mistake. Something substituted for an error.

A rebuke for making a mistake.

The act of punishing.

Removing of errors: The removing of errors from something or the indicating of errors in something.

The act or process of correcting.

Something that is substituted or proposed for what is wrong or inaccurate.

Rectification/ modification/ adjustment/ amending.

Amendation.

Rectification.

Rectification=

To set right. To correct.

To purify.

To correct by removing errors.

To adjust.

A quantity applied by way of correcting.

The act or process of correcting.

Something that is substituted or proposed for what is wrong or inaccurate.

Amendation.

To correct something or make something right.

The act of rectifying or the fact of being rectified.

To correct by calculation or adjustment.

To adjust.

To fix/ repair/ remedy/ amend/ correct/ redress/ put to right/ to straighten/ to reform/ to adjust something.

The act of amending, correcting or setting right that which is wrong or erroneous.

“Vessels of wrath fitted to destruction”

Fitted= Katartizo=

To mend what has been broken or rent.

To repair.

To complete/ put in order/ to arrange/ to adjust.

To make one what he aught to be.

“In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him.” -C.S. Lewis

 

[nikolai_42]

FineLinen,

If that judgment is merely correction and setting someone right, why is it that plucking one's eye out or cutting one's hand off saves the rest of the body from judgement? In other words, if this was corrective justice, why wouldn't the corrective be the same now as beyond the grave?

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matthew 5:28-30

The plucking out and the lopping off appear to be corrective as they prevent a man from experiencing something far worse. If this were justice, why are the two (cutting off a member vs. the whole body being cast into hell) vastly different in extent? If it speaks about a single member perishing (in the context of being cut off), why would the judgement of hell not likewise be a perishing? And since a dead severed limb is not used (or mentioned in connection with restoration of that limb) why would the greater perishing be any different?

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Nikolai: God punishment is not an end in itself. It encompasses chastisement, but chastisement leading to change & transformation. The Father has dual aspects in all He does, He kills & He makes alive. He rends, but rending is not the final outcome. He mends what He has broken and rent. He is the mighty Repairer making every last broken wreck of Adam1 what he aught to be.

The polýs constituted sinners= the polýs constituted righteous.

 

[FineLinen]

The punishment of the Father of all fathers is not merely correction: it is correction that improves, changes, transforms for the better.

Our God punishes with an objective in view, not as an end in itself!

There are dual aspects to our Father’s Realm as shown in the following…

Tamiym/ 'ymt means to be consumed, destroyed, exhausted and spent, but also to be finished and made sound.

Kalal has the same meaning, linking destruction, being spent, exhausted, as well as to be finished and made sound.

Tamam, the root word of Tamiym means to be finished, complete, summed up, made whole: linked with to be consumed, exhausted, spent and destroyed.

Shalam/ ~IX, another expression of destruction, has the scope of being finished and ended, made good or whole, & being made sound, coupled with to be restored.

Shebar, rooted in Shabar, means breakout, and being brought to birth; and underlying new birth and breakout? To be crushed and broken. Again there is dual meaning in our Lord’s words of destruction and re-creation.

Chalowph

The destructive Hebrew word Chalowph is rooted in being altered, renewed, changed, and to sprout again. It should also be noted that this is not just change, but change for the better.

 

[beloved57]

God has the Sovereign Right and exercised His Sovereign Right , as a Potter over His clay, to make of the same lump, sinful fallen humanity if we may, vessels of wrath preordained to be damned for their sins, eternal destruction.

Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The word destruction apōleia here does denote:

the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell

See 2 Thess 1:9

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[Nanja]

God has the Sovereign Right and exercised His Sovereign Right , as a Potter over His clay, to make of the same lump, sinful fallen humanity if we may, vessels of wrath preordained to be damned for their sins, eternal destruction.

Rom 9:20-22

[FONT=&]20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/FONT]

[FONT=&]21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?[/FONT]

[FONT=&]22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The word destruction apōleia here does denote:[/FONT]
[FONT=&]
the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell

See 2 Thess 1:9

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;[/FONT]

Amen Brother ! Sovereign God has reserved this portion of humanity He refers to as the Vessels of Wrath Rom. 9:22, to forever be under His condemnation and eternal misery in hell: The very same ones that were condemned already John 3:18, pointing to the destruction of them which will continue everlastingly, or throughout all Eternity 2 Thess. 1:9 !

 

[beloved57]

Amen Brother ! Sovereign God has reserved this portion of humanity He refers to as the Vessels of Wrath Rom. 9:22, to forever be under His condemnation and eternal misery in hell: The very same ones that were condemned already John 3:18, pointing to the destruction of them which will continue everlastingly, or throughout all Eternity 2 Thess. 1:9 !

Exactly, you nailed it !

 

[beloved57]

If my understanding of the scripture is correct, the majority of the world, mankind are vessels of wrath being fitted [by God] for destruction ! Rom 9:21-22

²¹ Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

²² What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


Matt 7:13

¹³ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

 

[Nanja]

If my understanding of the scripture is correct, the majority of the world, mankind are vessels of wrath being fitted [by God] for destruction ! Rom 9:21-22

²¹ Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

²² What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


Matt 7:13

¹³ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Yes, I believe your understanding is certainly correct Brother; that the majority of mankind has been Created by God as vessels of wrath, for the express Purpose of Him raising them up to justly punish them for their wickedness and disobedience to His Law and Justice: And most assuredly, He did not send His Only Begotten Son into that world [kosmos] of wicked men to save them from their sins. For they have always, in the Mind of God, been placed on the broad way to destruction.