God and Evil

[OCTOBER23]

Notice that Affleck has still not responded to my post or my Bible verses .

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts:

and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason

of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Here are some prophetic words for Affleck..............

https://youtu.be/F3VyuXhx3Ng

 

[George Affleck]

I don't agree with your interpretation of the story of original sin, so I don't agree with your presumptions about God.

Here is my understanding of the Genesis story in the Bible:

Man's original sin was hubris. It was our presuming ourselves to be God's equals. And thus presuming that we possess sufficient knowledge of good and evil to stand in judgment of God, and in judgment of God's Creation, as if we were their Creator, ourselves. And then, through this false assumption, we both proclaim what is good and evil, and demand that God be held responsible for it!

But in truth, we do not possess the knowledge of good and evil because it was forbidden to us, and what God forbids, stays forbidden. So our judgments are based on our own self-centered presumption that Creation was intended to serve us, as if were are gods, ourselves, and that God owes us an answer for our not being served by Creation as we presume we ought to be.

Thus, the whole question of God and evil is just another manifestation of mankind's original sin; the sin of hubris. And so the solution to that question in not that God provides us an answer, but that we humble ourselves, and admit that the question, itself, is both immature, and selfish.

I was finally able to read and digest this and your other post. It would seem that we are not on exactly the same page with regard to the basics; though not far off. Revelation, for our purposes, exists for one reason - our enlightenment. The minute we step outside of it and into speculation we commit the same sin as Adam, which I do not believe was, technically, hubris.

Hubris was the act of Satan who influenced the original sin of Adam which was disobedience to a specific directive from God in the garden. Rom 5:19KJV Eph 2:2KJV We are called the children of disobedience because we are related to Adam and share in original sin.

Of course all sin is related and can be said to be wilfully stepping outside of the boundaries set by God. Hubris, however, is quite advanced in comparison to simple disobedience.

The other objection I have is that a non-answer is simply fatalism. Que sera sera. I am convinced this is what drives people away from the church thinking that they are justified in doing so. I believe there are good answers (not complete ones) for this subject and I hope to involve others in that investigation..

 

[George Affleck]

To the victors go the spoils..complete with their own revised histories and religions. If not the god you speak of, another in its stead. :idunno:

Mankind is the (greedy, capricious) captain of the ship....god is simply its constructed vessel.

Hi Quip!

Still quipping I see.

 

[PureX]

I was finally able to read and digest this and your other post. It would seem that we are not on exactly the same page with regard to the basics; though not far off. Revelation, for our purposes, exists for one reason - our enlightenment. The minute we step outside of it and into speculation we commit the same sin as Adam, which I do not believe was, technically, hubris.

Hubris was the act of Satan who influenced the original sin of Adam which was disobedience to a specific directive from God in the garden. Rom 5:19KJV Eph 2:2KJV We are called the children of disobedience because we are related to Adam and share in original sin.

Of course all sin is related and can be said to be wilfully stepping outside of the boundaries set by God. Hubris, however, is quite advanced in comparison to simple disobedience.

The other objection I have is that a non-answer is simply fatalism. Que sera sera. I am convinced this is what drives people away from the church thinking that they are justified in doing so. I believe there are good answers (not complete ones) for this subject and I hope to involve others in that investigation..

"Disobedience" is an immature (childish) understanding of sin. And maintaining it is a means of deliberate spiritual retardation, done for the purpose of control by religious institutions bent on establishing and holding power over people instead of enlightening them and allowing them to follow God instead of "religious authority".

The ideal that the snake offered mankind in the Genesis story was equality with God: the knowledge of good and evil, and the illusion of eternal life. Both conditions that were not available to us by God's design. And so mankind "ingested" the fruit of this snake's deceit, and presumed unto itself a knowledge of good and evil, and an assumption of eternal life. These are the essence of mankind's original sin. And the story includes these specific temptations and presumptions for a reason: so that we will know how we have come to be living in antipathy with Creation and our Creator, as we are. It's not just some childish story about "disobedience". It's a story about grown ups, and for grown ups, to show how we separate ourselves both from "Eden", and from God, even to this day. And it's not because we "disobey" some religious authority's dictates. It's because we are still presuming unto ourselves a knowledge of good and evil that we do not rightly possess. And because we are still presuming unto ourselves an eternal existence that we do not know we will have. And most of all it's because we are still thinking and acting as if we are gods, ourselves. (Sound familiar?)

And because we are still committing this original sin of hubris, we are still laboring our lives away trying to "correct" God's creation to make it serve us, exclusively, as we falsely presume it was meant to do, because we falsely presume ourselves to be the equals of God on Earth.

(Instead of the human reflections of God, that we were intended to be.)

 

[chrysostom]

some of us do

they are adjectives

No, you do not. But I've never met anyone who actually does, so... you're not alone.

good and evil are adjectives
so
they do not exist by themselves

 

[chrysostom]

Morally evil acts exist.

they do not
but
those who do them do

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"

This is a quote from MrDeets blogpost which seems to me to be the essence of a long unanswered difficulty he struggled with. This is a reasonable question and a real issue for many and can be used effectively by Satan if left unanswered.

I encourage all serious, biblical/theological input.

Love and free will are the only logical answers.

Whether you believe in the Devil or not. We all know the abscence of love in word and deed. There undoubtedly is the abscence of love in this world. The abscence of God, as "God is love".

The answer always has to go to from that question to, from an apologetic standpoint, a the question: Can there be relational love without free will?

The logical answer to that is there is no true love without free will.

What then is God doing to stop the abscence of love? Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! He brought the love we need and He gives it to us. The question then stands: Will we accept His amazing gift of love, will we love Him and live in Him, in His Holy Spirit and His love and bring the love to those who so desperately need it?

 

[chrysostom]

Love and free will are the only logical answers.

Whether you believe in the Devil or not. We all know the abscence of love in word and deed. There undoubtedly is the abscence of love in this world. The abscence of God, as "God is love".

The answer always has to go to from an apologetic standpoint to the question: Can there be relational love without free will?

The logical answer to that is there is no true love without free will.

What then is God doing to stop the abscence of love? Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! He brought the love we need and He gives it to us. The question then stands: Will we accept His amazing gift of love, will we love Him and live in Him, in His Holy Spirit and His love and bring the love to those who so desperately need it?

great post brother

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

great post brother

Ha, even with gramatical errors, in haste. Thx brother. Outside of His love nothing makes sense, inside of it everything does.

 

[fzappa13]

It's not too hard to figure out the difference between good and evil when they happen TO you. I suspect that's what the Big Guy meant about that "do unto others", business. So, after having dispensed with that we can move along to the supposed arbitrary and capricious nature of what God allows mankind to experience.

I know my "name it and claim it/faith only" friends would disagree but I would suggest that a faith untried is no faith and that is at least a part of the purpose of the vagaries that both the faithful and others experience. Our reaction to these situations justifies God's judgement of them, ironically, by our own terms ... faith or no. The book of Job is not a bad starting point when in search of a good illustration of this point.

Anyone remember who the sun shines and the rain falls upon?

Anyone remember whom the Bible defines as a Bastard?

 

[Eric h]

Love and free will are the only logical answers.

God loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself, we are created as children in his own image. He gave us the greatest commandments to love our neighbour as we love ourselves. There are around two thousand passages in the Bible, that tell us how we should treat the poor and oppressed.

God has given us more than enough recourses to go round, sadly twenty percent of the world population, owns around eighty percent of its assets.

God has sent you, me and everyone else to be a part of the solution, we have the instructions, it should not be rocket science to help those in need.

Billions of dollars are spent on the diet industry, we throw mountains of food away, the war budget would feed the starving. We trade unfairly with poor countries, paying their workers a dollar or two a day to produce our goods.

I don't think God can do any more for us, we have to take some responsibility.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

God loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself, we are created as children in his own image. He gave us the greatest commandments to love our neighbour as we love ourselves. There are around two thousand passages in the Bible, that tell us how we should treat the poor and oppressed.

God has given us more than enough recourses to go round, sadly twenty percent of the world population, owns around eighty percent of its assets.

God has sent you, me and everyone else to be a part of the solution, we have the instructions, it should not be rocket science to help those in need.

Billions of dollars are spent on the diet industry, we throw mountains of food away, the war budget would feed the starving. We trade unfairly with poor countries, paying their workers a dollar or two a day to produce our goods.

I don't think God can do any more for us, we have to take some responsibility.

Corruption, in third world countries, i.e. the abscence of God, contributes to food shortages.

We are called to give as if we are giving to Jesus... We are His solution... And there are those that are called and go and murdered for being Christian in hostile environments.

There is plenty to do, no doubt.

 

[fzappa13]

God loves each and everyone of us

Romans 9:13

“As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”

Occasionally the Bible offers us things not quickly or easily heard ... therein lay learning to those open to it.

 

[George Affleck]

"Disobedience" is an immature (childish) understanding of sin.

I appreciate your opinion.
I can only appeal to God's Word in defense.

Rom 5:19KJV
Rom 5:19NIV
Rom 5:19NKJV
Rom 5:19ESV
Rom 5:19NASB

 

[George Affleck]

God loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself, we are created as children in his own image. He gave us the greatest commandments to love our neighbour as we love ourselves. There are around two thousand passages in the Bible, that tell us how we should treat the poor and oppressed.

God has given us more than enough recourses to go round, sadly twenty percent of the world population, owns around eighty percent of its assets.

God has sent you, me and everyone else to be a part of the solution, we have the instructions, it should not be rocket science to help those in need.

Billions of dollars are spent on the diet industry, we throw mountains of food away, the war budget would feed the starving. We trade unfairly with poor countries, paying their workers a dollar or two a day to produce our goods.

I don't think God can do any more for us, we have to take some responsibility.

This is truly an excellent post. I was hoping someone would eventually talk about the elephant in the living room.

Suffering exists and God asks us to be His hands and feet in solving it. Not because He needs us, but for the blessedness of participating in His work. It's fine to criticize those who only pray for Aunt Millie's bunion to heal and I get that. But if we are not actively involved in healing the world in Christ's name, we are not Christians, we are just critics.

This is just one of the many reasons why suffering is in the world - to test those who say they love Jesus but will not lift a finger to help others. Will we help ease someone's suffering? Will we fight evil? He suffered and fought the evil one so we could escape eternal death.

Our protagonist has taken the opposite and incorrect view. He has decided to simply quit because others, in his opinion, don't know what they are doing - therefore God must not exist. That's not logic. That's not even a good excuse!

Well done Eric. This is one of the reasons why evil and suffering exists. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Later addition:
For those who wish to challenge this, please note that I did not say this was the main reason, just one of the many that we can know about.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

This is truly an excellent post. I was hoping someone would eventually talk about the elephant in the living room.

Suffering exists and God asks us to be His hands and feet in solving it. Not because He needs us, but for the blessedness of participating in His work. It's fine to criticize those who only pray for Aunt Millie's bunion to heal and I get that. But if we are not actively involved in healing the world in Christ's name, we are not Christians, we are just critics.

This is just one of the many reasons why suffering is in the world - to test those who say they love Jesus but will not lift a finger to help others. Will we help ease someone's suffering? Will we fight evil? He suffered and fought the evil one so we could escape eternal death.

Our protagonist has taken the opposite and incorrect view. He has decided to simply quit because others, in his opinion, don't know what they are doing - therefore God must not exist. That's not logic. That's not even a good excuse!

Well done Eric. This is one of the reasons why evil and suffering exists. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Later addition:
For those who wish to challenge this, please note that I did not say this was the main reason, just one of the many that we can know about.

Peace makin's cool in my book.

 

[glorydaz]

Romans 9:13

“As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”

Occasionally the Bible offers us things not quickly or easily heard ... therein lay learning to those open to it.

That is talking about nations. Very quickly and easily heard if you simply take the context into consideration. "Two nations are in your womb..."

Why did God hate Esau? Because Esau was Edom, and Edom was so cruel to Israel that God calls them, ""The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever". Read about it. It's quite interesting. And much better than making stuff up.

Genesis 36:19
Now these are the generations of Esau, who is Edom.

Genesis 36:8
Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom.

Genesis 36:19
These are the sons of Esau, who is Edom, and these are their dukes.​

 

[George Affleck]

We are His solution

Actually, it is quite the opposite.

He is, in every way conceivable, our solution.

A good example is prayer. The main reason for prayer, is not to have an effect or bend his arm, but to be part of His plan in which He invites us to participate.

If we pray, according to His will, when he brings it to pass, we have, by His grace, participated alongside Him in bringing glory to God.

If we do not pray, we have not participated in anything.

The same is true of alleviating suffering and fighting evil. He invites us to participate in the same way. When we do, we are rewarded in that we have worked with God. This is how He solves us, by allowing us to be His hands and feet. What a blessing!

 

[quip]

Hi Quip!

Still quipping I see.

Hi GA. :wave:

Ever wonder of the pantheon of historical gods....especially their divine fate?

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

That is talking about nations. Very quickly and easily heard if you simply take the context into consideration. "Two nations are in your womb..."

Why did God hate Esau? Because Esau was Edom, and Edom was so cruel to Israel that God calls them, ""The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever". Read about it. It's quite interesting. And much better than making stuff up.

Genesis 36:19
Now these are the generations of Esau, who is Edom.

Genesis 36:8
Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom.

Genesis 36:19
These are the sons of Esau, who is Edom, and these are their dukes.​

Sure they became nations.

Two.

So if Paul is speaking of these two Nations who are these multiple vessels?


Romans 9:22 KJV


22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known , endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Uh Oh there's those riches again.

So all Gentiles are Edomites?

Talk about makin' stuff up.


24 Even us, whom he hath called , not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?