Freewill religion is the Man of Sin !

beloved57

Well-known member
Adam's obedience was not worthy enough !

Adam's obedience was not worthy enough !

Could adam's obedience to the Law of God given him, had it been perfect, he being from the created dust of the ground ; Could it had effected Eternal Salvation and Glory for Millions, for a Number that no man could number as Per Rev 7:9-12

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Did adam's obedience, a mere creature, contain potentially the same infinite Value as Christ's Did ?
 

Cross Reference

New member
If God commands, can any resist His will?

Are the damned going to hell because God willed it to be so?

I believe His commands and His Will are two different issues, Black. What do you think?:

"O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea" Isaiah 48:18 (KJV)

I believe His Will, regardless of disobedience, will be done. The disobedient will just be left out.
 

TulipBee

BANNED
Banned
Perhaps, it would be better if you explained your thoughts,
in a more coherent manner?

That's what the student wanted from the zen master but the student was too busy minded to grasp the meaning of God.

That's alright, you're not alone. Only a few are chosen and understood.
 

TulipBee

BANNED
Banned
So you are saved? How do you know?



And I'm not elect to be saved? How do you know?



So you and God are the cause together, of sin? But the part that you cause, He predestines you to cause? So He causes you to cause your part? In reality then, you are saying that God causes sin.

So now you believe that you're elect, I'm damned, and God causes it all. Please explain to me, what assurance you have, that God who causes sin, has elected you; and is not causing you to think you're elect, when really you are damned. He causes sin; He causes deceit.


31259754.jpg


God's omnipresence includes His immensity by which He is able to be present in His fullness at all times and in all places.

God's omnipresence is a comfort to me and a terror to you. You're terrified that God will take your arminian free will away. God's omnipotence, though a threat to you but a source of comfort to me. When you use the new silly antiCalvinist language founded by wolves, every effect must have a cause. God is not an effect. He has no cause. Salvation is of the Lord and from the Lord. Predestination is a difficult doctrine for you and I must handle our conversations with care. The reason I know your not saved is that you have no desire to choose Christ and God does not elect everybody. He reserves the right to have mercy upon whom He pleases. God treats no one unjustly. God's call is ineffectual to you by free willism and meism and easy decisioism you preach to the lost while you assume I'm lost, God's call is effectual to me. You never understood that regeneration precedes faith. Rebirth is a necessary precondition for you to enter the kingdom of God. You can talk all you want by you're not justified by a mere profession of faith. You can't earn justification by your good works and trickery questions. You may impress your arminian friends but you don't impress me with your dishonest goofy questions.
 

TulipBee

BANNED
Banned
The Swiss are reputed to be very succinct. For example, when a normal person say something like 'I'm sorry I didn't quite catch that, could you repeat it for me please?', a Swiss person just says
'Huh?'

Here's what I garner from the above post: 'God is incomprehensible to me so I am entitled to be incomprehensible to others. And If I think you aren't going to agree with my incomprehensible answer I'm also entitled not to give you an answer anyway.'

Was I right?
Don't on any account say yes or no. Minimum responses must be 500 words.

2328393006_huh_what_answer_3_xlarge.jpeg
 

blackbirdking

New member
Freewill ism, and Legalism and all other ism's is men worshiping themselves, having confidence in their flesh [ Jer 17:5;Phil 3:3],

Amen; all ism is men worshiping themselves. John Calvin is the founder of Calvin ism.

Adam experienced guilt.

Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And he said, "I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself". And he said, "Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?" And the man said, "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat."

According to Calvinism, Adam should have said, "You caused me to eat, I was doing your will."


Adam could not have experienced guilt in the garden unless he believed he sinned by choice; an act of his own free will.

Without free will, man cannot assume resposibilty; without responsibility, man can have no guilt.




Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
AMEN; however you trust in Calvin.

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh
AMEN; however, you don't worship at all; worship comes from one's heart in accordance with one's own free will.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Amen; all ism is men worshiping themselves. John Calvin is the founder of Calvin ism.

Adam experienced guilt.

Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And he said, "I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself". And he said, "Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?" And the man said, "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat."

According to Calvinism, Adam should have said, "You caused me to eat, I was doing your will."


Adam could not have experienced guilt in the garden unless he believed he sinned by choice; an act of his own free will.

Without free will, man cannot assume resposibilty; without responsibility, man can have no guilt.




Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
AMEN; however you trust in Calvin.

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh
AMEN; however, you don't worship at all; worship comes from one's heart in accordance with one's own free will.




Heb 2:9-10

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain or author of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Heb 5:9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


He is the Author of them that are obeying Him, for that is evidence of their Salvation from Him. This is True because by nature they are as the children of disobedience Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

We cannot obey God in that nature we have by nature, our obedience comes out of an New Nature which Christ is the Author of !

Again, He is the Author of Salvation specifically to those who are obeying Him, which means their obeying Him has been caused by Him being the Author of their Salvation.

We must be saved from or out of disobedience / unbelief, which we were made unto because of sin Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Unbelief here also means disobedience , and by nature we are in it permanently, nothing but New Birth can free us !

By nature we are imprisoned therein unto disobedience, so we must be saved out of it in order to become obedient, or to obey or as the word obey means in Heb 5:9 hupakouó:

I listen, hearken to, obey, answer, ("obey" is acting under the authority of the one speaking, i.e. really listening to the one giving the charge (order).

to hearken to a command, i. e. to obey, be obedient unto, submit

This by nature as carnal and in the flesh we cannot do Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Notice that Paul says " neither indeed can be"

That simply denotes inability to be subject to God by nature ! Being subject means obedience, or obeying Him !

Now understand what Heb 5:9 must be saying, That one does not first obey Jesus to get Eternal Salvation, But He saves them, Authors their Salvation so that they may now beging to obey Him.

The fact is, He cannot be the Author or causer of our Salvation our obedience, if in fact we are not saved by Him until after we become obedient on our own, that makes our own obedience the cause or author of our salvation.

But yet how could we obey Him, if we were not already saved out of disobedience ?

Heb 5:8-9

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Is teaching the same thing as Rom 5:19b

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

By His Obedience, those He represented become experimetnally obedient, just as those adam represented became experimentally disobedient ! Paul says of the Elect Titus 3:3

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

But Christ's death changes that, and Authored our Obedience Heb 5:9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

May Christ be Glorified for any and all Obedience to the Gospel !






Posted from the TOL App!
 

blackbirdking

New member
Heb 2:9-10

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Posted from the TOL App!

Amen.

I might be one of your elect and you don't know it.

Where am I wrong? Doesn't God want you to show me?

Since God ordained deception, how can I know I'm not deceived?
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Amen.

I might be one of your elect and you don't know it.

Where am I wrong? Doesn't God want you to show me?

Since God ordained deception, how can I know I'm not deceived?


Heb 2:9-10

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain or author of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Heb 5:9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


He is the Author of them that are obeying Him, for that is evidence of their Salvation from Him. This is True because by nature they are as the children of disobedience Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

We cannot obey God in that nature we have by nature, our obedience comes out of an New Nature which Christ is the Author of !

Again, He is the Author of Salvation specifically to those who are obeying Him, which means their obeying Him has been caused by Him being the Author of their Salvation.

We must be saved from or out of disobedience / unbelief, which we were made unto because of sin Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Unbelief here also means disobedience , and by nature we are in it permanently, nothing but New Birth can free us !

By nature we are imprisoned therein unto disobedience, so we must be saved out of it in order to become obedient, or to obey or as the word obey means in Heb 5:9 hupakouó:

I listen, hearken to, obey, answer, ("obey" is acting under the authority of the one speaking, i.e. really listening to the one giving the charge (order).

to hearken to a command, i. e. to obey, be obedient unto, submit

This by nature as carnal and in the flesh we cannot do Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Notice that Paul says " neither indeed can be"

That simply denotes inability to be subject to God by nature ! Being subject means obedience, or obeying Him !

Now understand what Heb 5:9 must be saying, That one does not first obey Jesus to get Eternal Salvation, But He saves them, Authors their Salvation so that they may now beging to obey Him.

The fact is, He cannot be the Author or causer of our Salvation our obedience, if in fact we are not saved by Him until after we become obedient on our own, that makes our own obedience the cause or author of our salvation.

But yet how could we obey Him, if we were not already saved out of disobedience ?

Heb 5:8-9

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Is teaching the same thing as Rom 5:19b

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

By His Obedience, those He represented become experimetnally obedient, just as those adam represented became experimentally disobedient ! Paul says of the Elect Titus 3:3

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

But Christ's death changes that, and Authored our Obedience Heb 5:9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

May Christ be Glorified for any and all Obedience to the Gospel !
 

beloved57

Well-known member
How? Isn't it ordained?



I wonder why? Wonder if has anything to do with accountability?

Heb 2:9-10

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain or author of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Heb 5:9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


He is the Author of them that are obeying Him, for that is evidence of their Salvation from Him. This is True because by nature they are as the children of disobedience Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

We cannot obey God in that nature we have by nature, our obedience comes out of an New Nature which Christ is the Author of !

Again, He is the Author of Salvation specifically to those who are obeying Him, which means their obeying Him has been caused by Him being the Author of their Salvation.

We must be saved from or out of disobedience / unbelief, which we were made unto because of sin Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Unbelief here also means disobedience , and by nature we are in it permanently, nothing but New Birth can free us !

By nature we are imprisoned therein unto disobedience, so we must be saved out of it in order to become obedient, or to obey or as the word obey means in Heb 5:9 hupakouó:

I listen, hearken to, obey, answer, ("obey" is acting under the authority of the one speaking, i.e. really listening to the one giving the charge (order).

to hearken to a command, i. e. to obey, be obedient unto, submit

This by nature as carnal and in the flesh we cannot do Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Notice that Paul says " neither indeed can be"

That simply denotes inability to be subject to God by nature ! Being subject means obedience, or obeying Him !

Now understand what Heb 5:9 must be saying, That one does not first obey Jesus to get Eternal Salvation, But He saves them, Authors their Salvation so that they may now beging to obey Him.

The fact is, He cannot be the Author or causer of our Salvation our obedience, if in fact we are not saved by Him until after we become obedient on our own, that makes our own obedience the cause or author of our salvation.

But yet how could we obey Him, if we were not already saved out of disobedience ?

Heb 5:8-9

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Is teaching the same thing as Rom 5:19b

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

By His Obedience, those He represented become experimetnally obedient, just as those adam represented became experimentally disobedient ! Paul says of the Elect Titus 3:3

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

But Christ's death changes that, and Authored our Obedience Heb 5:9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

May Christ be Glorified for any and all Obedience to the Gospel !
 

blackbirdking

New member
Heb 2:9-10
!

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


AMEN!
 

beloved57

Well-known member
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


AMEN!



Heb 2:9-10

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain or author of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Heb 5:9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


He is the Author of them that are obeying Him, for that is evidence of their Salvation from Him. This is True because by nature they are as the children of disobedience Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

We cannot obey God in that nature we have by nature, our obedience comes out of an New Nature which Christ is the Author of !

Again, He is the Author of Salvation specifically to those who are obeying Him, which means their obeying Him has been caused by Him being the Author of their Salvation.

We must be saved from or out of disobedience / unbelief, which we were made unto because of sin Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Unbelief here also means disobedience , and by nature we are in it permanently, nothing but New Birth can free us !

By nature we are imprisoned therein unto disobedience, so we must be saved out of it in order to become obedient, or to obey or as the word obey means in Heb 5:9 hupakouó:

I listen, hearken to, obey, answer, ("obey" is acting under the authority of the one speaking, i.e. really listening to the one giving the charge (order).

to hearken to a command, i. e. to obey, be obedient unto, submit

This by nature as carnal and in the flesh we cannot do Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Notice that Paul says " neither indeed can be"

That simply denotes inability to be subject to God by nature ! Being subject means obedience, or obeying Him !

Now understand what Heb 5:9 must be saying, That one does not first obey Jesus to get Eternal Salvation, But He saves them, Authors their Salvation so that they may now beging to obey Him.

The fact is, He cannot be the Author or causer of our Salvation our obedience, if in fact we are not saved by Him until after we become obedient on our own, that makes our own obedience the cause or author of our salvation.

But yet how could we obey Him, if we were not already saved out of disobedience ?

Heb 5:8-9

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Is teaching the same thing as Rom 5:19b

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

By His Obedience, those He represented become experimetnally obedient, just as those adam represented became experimentally disobedient ! Paul says of the Elect Titus 3:3

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

But Christ's death changes that, and Authored our Obedience Heb 5:9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

May Christ be Glorified for any and all Obedience to the Gospel !


Posted from the TOL App!
 

beloved57

Well-known member
cr

Jesus NEVER authored anyone's "obedience".

Yours did'nt ! But mine did !


Heb 2:9-10

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain or author of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Heb 5:9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


He is the Author of them that are obeying Him, for that is evidence of their Salvation from Him. This is True because by nature they are as the children of disobedience Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

We cannot obey God in that nature we have by nature, our obedience comes out of an New Nature which Christ is the Author of !

Again, He is the Author of Salvation specifically to those who are obeying Him, which means their obeying Him has been caused by Him being the Author of their Salvation.

We must be saved from or out of disobedience / unbelief, which we were made unto because of sin Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Unbelief here also means disobedience , and by nature we are in it permanently, nothing but New Birth can free us !

By nature we are imprisoned therein unto disobedience, so we must be saved out of it in order to become obedient, or to obey or as the word obey means in Heb 5:9 hupakouó:

I listen, hearken to, obey, answer, ("obey" is acting under the authority of the one speaking, i.e. really listening to the one giving the charge (order).

to hearken to a command, i. e. to obey, be obedient unto, submit

This by nature as carnal and in the flesh we cannot do Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Notice that Paul says " neither indeed can be"

That simply denotes inability to be subject to God by nature ! Being subject means obedience, or obeying Him !

Now understand what Heb 5:9 must be saying, That one does not first obey Jesus to get Eternal Salvation, But He saves them, Authors their Salvation so that they may now beging to obey Him.

The fact is, He cannot be the Author or causer of our Salvation our obedience, if in fact we are not saved by Him until after we become obedient on our own, that makes our own obedience the cause or author of our salvation.

But yet how could we obey Him, if we were not already saved out of disobedience ?

Heb 5:8-9

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Is teaching the same thing as Rom 5:19b

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

By His Obedience, those He represented become experimetnally obedient, just as those adam represented became experimentally disobedient ! Paul says of the Elect Titus 3:3

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

But Christ's death changes that, and Authored our Obedience Heb 5:9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

May Christ be Glorified for any and all Obedience to the Gospel !
 
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