God's Truth
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We have to forgive everyone.
Forgiving others
- Thread starter musterion
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We have to forgive everyone.
glorydaz
Well-known member
No we don't. Why put a burden on those who have been freed from the bondage of the law? Just because you insist on remaining under the law....to your own damnation, don't preach your false gospel to others.
We see there are always those who refuse to enter in themselves, yet try to keep others out as well. That's you, God's UNtruth.
Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
The apostles realized they were doing the same thing when they tried to put the Gentiles under the law...the same bondage they could not bear. Now you're doing it, too, God's UNtruth.
Acts 15:10-11 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
That yoke upon the neck...that bondage that the law brings. :nono:
glorydaz
Well-known member
Where do you see "repent" in the Gospel of Grace?
Saved by Grace through faith...not of yourselves.
One of the things mentioned on the topic of forgiveness, and someone I haven't seen mentioned here yet, is the fact that God requires repentance before forgiveness, or at least that's the model to follow, even for Christians, who are not under any law.
I say this because forgiveness without repentance teaches (perhaps indirectly), especially if it's a Christian doing the forgiving, that repentance isn't necessary, but instead that forgiveness is automatic.
Let's say there's a rape that is committed, and eventually the rapist is caught, put on trial, convicted, and sentenced to death (and yes, I am using the biblical model for a criminal justice system here). The victim and her family (all Christians) are allowed take part in the execution of the criminal. They ask the criminal of there's anything he has to say. He leers at the victim but says nothing, as if to say he is not sorry for what he did. The victim picks up the first stone and hurls it at the criminal, quickly followed by stones from the family and executioners.
Fast forward a few years, and the girl is still having trouble dealing with what happened. Here is something to consider: If she and her family forgive the rapist now, what will happen on Judgment Day when the family is allowed to judge those who wronged them (like Paul says) and then the rapist is brought before them?
They have already forgiven him, so there is nothing for them to judge, because the hurt he caused them has been wiped away. He will still go to hell, because he never repented, but he will not be punished as severely for what he did, because the family forgave him without him being sorry for it.
You see, when we as Christians forgive without requiring repentance first, we teach those unbelievers around us that repentance isn't necessary for God to forgive them, that it doesn't matter what they do, they don't have to repent for God to forgive them and allow them into heaven. Yet God tells us that nothing unclean will ever enter heaven, and if someone is not washed clean by the blood of Christ, then he will not enter, because Christ is the only way to the Father.
TL;DR Automatic forgiveness (especially without requiring repentance) sends unbelievers to hell.
Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” - Luke 17:3-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke17:3-4&version=NKJV
I say this because forgiveness without repentance teaches (perhaps indirectly), especially if it's a Christian doing the forgiving, that repentance isn't necessary, but instead that forgiveness is automatic.
Let's say there's a rape that is committed, and eventually the rapist is caught, put on trial, convicted, and sentenced to death (and yes, I am using the biblical model for a criminal justice system here). The victim and her family (all Christians) are allowed take part in the execution of the criminal. They ask the criminal of there's anything he has to say. He leers at the victim but says nothing, as if to say he is not sorry for what he did. The victim picks up the first stone and hurls it at the criminal, quickly followed by stones from the family and executioners.
Fast forward a few years, and the girl is still having trouble dealing with what happened. Here is something to consider: If she and her family forgive the rapist now, what will happen on Judgment Day when the family is allowed to judge those who wronged them (like Paul says) and then the rapist is brought before them?
They have already forgiven him, so there is nothing for them to judge, because the hurt he caused them has been wiped away. He will still go to hell, because he never repented, but he will not be punished as severely for what he did, because the family forgave him without him being sorry for it.
You see, when we as Christians forgive without requiring repentance first, we teach those unbelievers around us that repentance isn't necessary for God to forgive them, that it doesn't matter what they do, they don't have to repent for God to forgive them and allow them into heaven. Yet God tells us that nothing unclean will ever enter heaven, and if someone is not washed clean by the blood of Christ, then he will not enter, because Christ is the only way to the Father.
TL;DR Automatic forgiveness (especially without requiring repentance) sends unbelievers to hell.
Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” - Luke 17:3-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke17:3-4&version=NKJV
:chuckle:
No need; we both already have...drum roll please...
Romans 5:6-8!
Nevertheless, Rom. 14:5 :thumb:
glorydaz
Well-known member
So are you talking about godly sorrow when you say "repentance"?
2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Judson50
New member
“Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.”
**Luke *17:3 *NASB
And
“Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."”
**Mark *1:14-15 *NASB
“I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”
**Luke *13:3 *NASB
“Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
**Acts *2:38 *NASB
“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,”
**Acts *17:30 *NASB
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
glorydaz
Well-known member
None of those address the Gospel of Grace.
"Repent" in Acts 17 is a "change of mind"....from unbelief to belief.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Mighty cool how Jesus made himself of no reputation but waited for God to exalt him.
God's Truth
New member
Some of the people Paul preached to never heard of God and Jesus, so how can they change their mind about Him?
God's Truth
New member
Jesus says you will not be forgiven if you do not forgive.
Jesus taught the new law.
Jesus taught the law of the Spirit.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Mighty cool how Jesus made himself of no reputation but waited for God to exalt him.
How else would everyone know that Jesus of Nazareth is LORD?
Phil. 2:9-11 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Jesus said that when He was in the flesh. For some reason, you refuse to acknowledge that the ascended Lord Jesus Christ gave Paul a new message....the Gospel of Grace.... against which you preach.
2 Corinthians 5:16
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
No, He magnified the law, and made it harder to keep than ever.
No, He didn't. His work on the cross freed us from the law that condemned us.
The law of the Spirit of LIFE in Christ has freed me from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
glorydaz
Well-known member
What verses do you cite?
We each ever have a life-long way to go in our fuller understanding of one thing or another.
I look at the forgiveness issue in some of the following way - for this issue is multifaceted...
Each of us is not always consciously aware of what all our own standards are.
Often, we first find out what one or another of our own standards is only after it has been violated.
Just ask people about how things were when they first began to live together.
Because we form many of our standards unaware we are doing so.
That is also the Believer.
The result being that when he first comes to know the Lord, he already has in place, many various standards from his former life.
And the process of self-examination on such things is also life-long.
And obviously, some do not bother to do so to the extent that others do, whether more, or less, seldom, or not at all.
Which is why the Apostle Paul is ever going on about all this to the various assemblies of Believers the Lord founded through his ministry.
Likewise is the case with the writings of the others to their assemblies.
Such is the case today as well.
The result being that often, when we find that someone has violated some standard of ours, we respond from whatever that standard's already built-in position is on how to respond.
Next thing we know, out comes the various forms of "giving them a taste of their own medicine."
And following that, the various rationalizations for why we responded in the way we did, or why we get to get away with our having paid them back in kind, or what have you.
I have basically described a typical day for many on many a Christian forum, including this one.
In contrast to...
Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 4:27 Neither give place to the devil. 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
The thing is - the very moment we begin to respond, we must first take a serious pause to ask ourselves 'is how I am about to respond becoming of the Lord I represent?'
One result of that being that instead of lashing out, we find ourselves challenged for the better, to look at such moments from where the Lord does - and until we see things - as He does.
The result of that being that that moment, together with the Word as our actual moral compass, winds up working together for good.
In other words - towards "that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God," that God would have us walk in during such moments, to HIS glory in HIS Son, by HIS Spirit in OUR Inward Man by HIS Word WALKED IN by FAITH.
As Paul had basically said to Peter and company when he called him out before them all, there in Galatians 2 - anything else short of "the truth of the gospel" - short of its COMPLETE victory over sin - is "disimulation" (hypocrisy).
For there are a lot of interesting issues and lessons there, in that account in Galatians 2.
Nevertheless, Rom. 14:5; in memory of 5:6-8.
I look at the forgiveness issue in some of the following way - for this issue is multifaceted...
Each of us is not always consciously aware of what all our own standards are.
Often, we first find out what one or another of our own standards is only after it has been violated.
Just ask people about how things were when they first began to live together.
Because we form many of our standards unaware we are doing so.
That is also the Believer.
The result being that when he first comes to know the Lord, he already has in place, many various standards from his former life.
And the process of self-examination on such things is also life-long.
And obviously, some do not bother to do so to the extent that others do, whether more, or less, seldom, or not at all.
Which is why the Apostle Paul is ever going on about all this to the various assemblies of Believers the Lord founded through his ministry.
Likewise is the case with the writings of the others to their assemblies.
Such is the case today as well.
The result being that often, when we find that someone has violated some standard of ours, we respond from whatever that standard's already built-in position is on how to respond.
Next thing we know, out comes the various forms of "giving them a taste of their own medicine."
And following that, the various rationalizations for why we responded in the way we did, or why we get to get away with our having paid them back in kind, or what have you.
I have basically described a typical day for many on many a Christian forum, including this one.
In contrast to...
Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 4:27 Neither give place to the devil. 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
The thing is - the very moment we begin to respond, we must first take a serious pause to ask ourselves 'is how I am about to respond becoming of the Lord I represent?'
One result of that being that instead of lashing out, we find ourselves challenged for the better, to look at such moments from where the Lord does - and until we see things - as He does.
The result of that being that that moment, together with the Word as our actual moral compass, winds up working together for good.
In other words - towards "that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God," that God would have us walk in during such moments, to HIS glory in HIS Son, by HIS Spirit in OUR Inward Man by HIS Word WALKED IN by FAITH.
As Paul had basically said to Peter and company when he called him out before them all, there in Galatians 2 - anything else short of "the truth of the gospel" - short of its COMPLETE victory over sin - is "disimulation" (hypocrisy).
For there are a lot of interesting issues and lessons there, in that account in Galatians 2.
Nevertheless, Rom. 14:5; in memory of 5:6-8.
God's Truth
New member
So?! Jesus said his words were SPIRIT.
Jesus gave Paul the gospel that Jesus preached when he walked the earth.
Jesus is ruling in heaven that is why, and we are to be spiritual.
Jesus fulfilled the law and gives the Spirit as a Helper and a seal to those who believe and obey.
According to you, Jesus came and said a lot of things in 3 1/2 years just to have it nullified? No way that is not true.
Jesus taught the law of the Spirit.
Jesus taught while he was on the earth the law of the Spirit and then he said when he dies and ascends back to heaven he will give the Spirit to those who believe and obey.