Forced Vaccination is Wrong

CabinetMaker

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You have made many statements of "fact" like that the abortion vaccine is available when it is not yet.
Moving goal posts. Always a good tactic. Here is what Elo originally said:


Like your "fact" that Depo Provera was the "vaccine" we were discussing? You have made errors about your facts and nobody is going to be perfect at making their case, but we are talking about forcing vaccines for pity's sake, you could at least admit the limitations of what you know.
Look at Elo's original statement above. He said nothing about abortion or much of anything so I googled what he did say. Depo-Provera was the search result.

Especially since you think it might be okay to force something people are afraid of causing them harm as long as it seems to be a harmless jab to you.
Is there fear real or manufactured? Meaning, do they have real and valid concerns of poosible reactions to vaccines based on known allergies or have they been listening to people who grossly misstate facts and repeat debunked studies as absolute fact?

Assault is a crime, even if no bodily harm is done. You can't poke needles into a person who denies you access to their skin without assaulting them. This whole forcing idea is evil. On many, many levels.
Legally that is battery. Assault is a verbal crime. In any case, does a person have the right to spread infection through a population simply because they are afraid of a vaccine?

You've been called on some of your errors and barely acknowledge them. Don't pretend to be so sure of yourself on issues you can't present accurately.
I note that you have done the same. I also note that you ignore many things in peoples posts and respond to other things that you have taken out of context. Oh well. Such is the nature of internet forums.

That's like me saying - "you don't know enough to make me a pincushion"

And them saying - "you're a criminal if you don't let us make you and your vulnerable babies pincushions."

I think I know who's the extremist. :plain:
Both are equally extreme.

And what about journalists who lead with big stories against the anti-vaccine movement? Seen plenty of those. Many designed to scare doctors who comply with the Nuremburg Code.
What about them? They are journalists. They will lead with whatever story makes the biggest splash and draws viewers to their channel.

Journalists didn't start the debates we see today. More like dualing immunologists who were developing vaccines like Salk and Sabin. They were constantly attacking the safety and efficacy arguments for each other's vaccines, and insulting each other, pointing to real dangers and concerns with both live/killed vaccine methods.
Journalists will report any of these debates if they think it will sell news. Sadly, this can greatly distract from the real science that can come from disagreements between immunologists.

As though you have a single study that proved it or that the follow-up story with the "evidence" against the link was mostly created by a criminal, who's work was not critiqued like Wakefield's was. In fact, I had heard of the link way before I heard of Wakefield.

Does everybody forget when the autism connection first came up? It was way before the one media patsy Dr. came out.
Well, actually, yes. There are follow ups on the story showing how the data was faked, what the good docs agenda was and that he lost his license for it. I still haven't seen those facts reach into the anti-vacc community.


I hope it fails, for your sake, and for mine. It could never be a good thing.
Time will tell. Remember, infectious disease wiped out 60% of the European population and resulted in the dark ages. We would naive to think it could not happen again. Small Pox is actually a fairly real threat were it to break back into the population.
 

Rusha

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In any case, does a person have the right to spread infection through a population simply because they are afraid of a vaccine?

^ This ... is exactly what this whole *debate* boils down to.

And no. They do not. Though as stated, I don't have a problem with non-vaccinated people living apart, in seclusion, from the rest of society.
 

1PeaceMaker

New member
Moving goal posts. Always a good tactic. Here is what Elo originally said:

That's not the "availability" at the doctor's office you claimed. He was simply pointing out your factual incorrectness. It's an example of mistakes you make. Do you need a better example? I can think of a few pretty easily.

Look at Elo's original statement above. He said nothing about abortion or much of anything so I googled what he did say. Depo-Provera was the search result.

Instead of getting your facts wrong, why didn't you first ask for clarification before making an assertion? It wasn't exactly the most logical move on your part.

Is there fear real or manufactured? Meaning, do they have real and valid concerns of poosible reactions to vaccines based on known allergies or have they been listening to people who grossly misstate facts and repeat debunked studies as absolute fact?

People don't ask, they assume. Example, perhaps someone isn't getting the vaccine because they are Orthodox Jews or another religion that has a basis for considering it spiritually defiling behavior.

Legally that is battery. Assault is a verbal crime.
In any case, does a person have the right to spread infection through a population simply because they are afraid of a vaccine?

All over the world people are personally witnessing the consequences of vaccination, with 1/5 of our precious children now learning disabled. I think people have a right to be afraid.

as·sault

/əˈsôlt/

verb

1. make a physical attack on.
I note that you have done the same.

I post portions of your post because the whole thing is already sitting there above my post and I want to speak to you on a single assertion I pick at a time, rather than try to make a single comment on a soup of ideas.

Not to mention, some of the things you say are so obviously superfluous or weak that I don't feel a need to say anything to those points.

Both are equally extreme.

One person is trying to enforce assault while the other is objecting. It's not extreme to object to forced medical procedures.

In your haste, you got a Gardasil shot that has not been studied or improved on over the course of time. Now there's another one out and you have to take the same vaccination risk all over again when it hits the market. And then there will be another improvement. Will you have to retake it all again when Gardasil 20 or 50 comes out?

What a waste.

What about them? They are journalists. They will lead with whatever story makes the biggest splash and draws viewers to their channel.

Ok. Seemed like you were biased for a minute.

Journalists will report any of these debates if they think it will sell news. Sadly, this can greatly distract from the real science that can come from disagreements between immunologists.

Especially if they are trying to shame people out of critical thinking by getting stuck on scapegoats like Wakefield.

Well, actually, yes. There are follow ups on the story showing how the data was faked, what the good docs agenda was and that he lost his license for it. I still haven't seen those facts reach into the anti-vacc community.

It's a red herring. Everything about that story is messed up, especially the attitude that if Wakefield had somehow been "valid" it would have been proof of the autism/vaccine connection. Hello? Can't anyone see the hole in that logic?

Time will tell. Remember, infectious disease wiped out 60% of the European population and resulted in the dark ages. We would naive to think it could not happen again. Small Pox is actually a fairly real threat were it to break back into the population.

But it wasn't controlled by muzzling and assaulting the unwilling with vaccines.
 
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1PeaceMaker

New member
I don't have a problem with non-vaccinated people living apart, in seclusion, from the rest of society.

And they don't get any pediatricians or other doctors to take care of them, right?

In Rushafornia would you take the licenses of doctors that tried to treat them without vaccinating them against their will?
 

CabinetMaker

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That's not the "availability" at the doctor's office you claimed. He was simply pointing out your factual incorrectness. It's an example of mistakes you make. Do you need a better example? I can think of a few pretty easily.
It wasn't a mistake, it was a reply to a vaguely worded statement that is now being used to say I made a mistake. Maybe you should both attempt to be much more precise in postings.

Instead of getting your facts wrong, why didn't you first ask for clarification before making an assertion? It wasn't exactly the most logical move on your part.
My response was based on what I read. There wasn't anything in his post that I felt needed clarification. Until he started claiming that is not what he had originally said. It is important to be able to make your points clearly on these threads.

People don't ask, they assume. Example, perhaps someone isn't getting the vaccine because they are Orthodox Jews or another religion that has a basis for considering it spiritually defiling behavior.
Usually people who have a religious reason for not getting a vaccine simply say, "My faith prevents us from using vaccinations." I have never heard of anybody with a religious objection saying they can't get the vaccine because it causes autism.

All over the world people are personally witnessing the consequences of vaccination, with 1/5 of our precious children now learning disabled. I think people have a right to be afraid.
How come you provided no cite with this claim. How were they disabled? Were other factors accounted for in the reporting? You say things like this and they are complete drivel to anybody with a background in science because they lack any supporting evidence at all.

I post portions of your post because the whole thing is already sitting there above my post and I want to speak to you on a single assertion I pick at a time, rather than try to make a single comment on a soup of ideas.
You could always do like I do and break the post up like this and respond to each point. You felt it was important enough to say, I respect you enough to take the time to reply to what you say. I may not agree with you, but I do try respect you enough to respond to your enter post.

Not to mention, some of the things you say are so obviously superfluous or weak that I don't feel a need to say anything to those points.
To others, what I say is accurate and on-point.

One person is trying to enforce assault while the other is objecting. It's not extreme to object to forced medical procedures.
Forced as in strapped down is one thing. Required for school attendance is another. I would never forcefully make anybody get a shot. Given the potential of serious harm to all attendees of a public school, I have no problem with a school requiring vaccinations as a condition of attendance. With allowances made for reasonable exclusions based on a set of narrow exceptions.

In your haste, you got a Gardasil shot that has not been studied or improved on over the course of time. Now there's another one out and you have to take the same vaccination risk all over again when it hits the market. And then there will be another improvement. Will you have to retake it all again when Gardasil 20 or 50 comes out?

What a waste.
No, we will not be re-vaccinating. There is no need. The injections were completed so we are done.

Ok. Seemed like you were biased for a minute.
Just remember that ALL news sources are biased.

Especially if they are trying to shame people out of critical thinking by getting stuck on scapegoats like Wakefield.
There are plenty of blogs on the net that will try to scare people out of critical thinking using whatever measures work.

It's a red herring. Everything about that story is messed up, especially the attitude that if Wakefield had somehow been "valid" it would have been proof of the autism/vaccine connection. Hello? Can't anyone see the hole in that logic?
The single largest hole in the study is that we have no idea what causes autism. There is no blood test for it, no CT scan or other diagnostic test, it is diagnosed strictly based on behavior. How can one possible conclude the relationship between autism and anything given that we don't what causes autism in the first place?

But it wasn't controlled by muzzling and assaulting the unwilling with vaccines.
There was a vaccine available as early as 1770. Given what small pox did to populations, to families, I am sure that people would have lined up to get the vaccine if they knew it would prevent small pox. There is a reason our forefathers spent so much time, money and effort developing a way to combat disease. It was not to control people or make them sick, it was to save them from death and blindness and parallelization and deafness and all the other things they witnessed in the world around them.
 

1PeaceMaker

New member
It wasn't a mistake, it was a reply to a vaguely worded statement



Yes, it was. You can now go to your doctor and get this shot in lieu of other forms of birth control. It was not developed specifically to sterilize Kenya. Not also that the drug developed is reversible.

Not true. You're making that up.

No, I'm not. It was in the news a year or two ago.

You are making it up because I know for a fact that vaccine is not available anywhere.



No it wasn't. You are imagining that, or you are confusing it with some birth-control advertisement that has nothing to do with this particular vaccine.

The HSD-hCG vaccine (in the paper cited) was only a step in the process to develop a recombinant vaccine hCB β-LTB, and that vaccine was still in toxicology studies before it could go to clinical trials, according to a paper published last year by the researchers that created the vaccine.

Do you want to continue making false statements, or concede the point?



My response was based on what I read. There wasn't anything in his post that I felt needed clarification. Until he started claiming that is not what he had originally said. It is important to be able to make your points clearly on these threads.


mmmmk I think we can let the readers decide, but do you feel I should make my point with another example?
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame




mmmmk I think we can let the readers decide, but do you feel I should make my point with another example?



I think you should try since you totally failed here. Look again:


Originally Posted by elohiym
The HSD-hCG vaccine prevents pregnancy in women: feasibility study of a reversible safe contraceptive vaccine.
It was successful.


His head line, vaccine prevents pregnancy.

So I Googled "Vaccine that prevents pregnancy" Guess what I found - Depo-Provera. Look closely at what he said, He is referencing the study of a vaccine that prevents pregnancy, is reversible and was successfully tested. Which of these conditions does Depo-Provera fail to meet?

I got my years off simply because it is not a subject I follow closely and memory can be so subjective at times.

so Elo comes back with this:


Originally Posted by elohiym
You are making it up because I know for a fact that vaccine is not available anywhere.



Well, since I was speaking to Depo-Prevara, my statement was, in fact true.


I followed his link andhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9083611 offered this:


The HSD-hCG vaccine prevents pregnancy in women: feasibility study of a reversible safe contraceptive vaccine.

Talwar GP1, Singh OM, Gupta SK, Hasnain SE, Pal R, Majumbar SS, Vrati S, Mukhopadhay A, Srinivasan J, Deshmukh U, Ganga S, Mandokhot A, Gupta A.
Author information


Abstract

PROBLEM:

To develop a vaccine for reversible control of fertility in women. MATERIALS AND PROTOCOLS: Purified beta subunit of hCG annealed to purified alpha subunit of ovine LH linked chemically to tetanus toxoid (TT) and diphtheria (DT); vaccine employed at 300 micrograms gonadotropin equivalent per injection adsorbed on alhydrogel with 1 mg SPLPS added in the first injection; Phase I safety trials in 47 women with elective tubal ligation; Phase II efficacy studies in 148 proven fertile women (2 children), sexually active, desirous of family planning using IUD; IUD removed when anti-hCG titres exceed 50 ng/ml hCG bioneutralization capacity; boosters given to maintain above threshold antibody levels; post coital tests conducted in 8 volunteers; sera of protected women analysed for immuno-determinants recognized by competitive enzyme immunoassays employing a panel of monoclonal antibodies and by direct binding to synthetic peptides; recombinant vaccines expressing beta hCG as a secreted product or as a fused protein anchored on membrane.
RESULTS:

Immunization was well tolerated with no significant changes in endocrine, metabolic and hematological indices. Normal ovulatory cycles were maintained as indicated by menstrual regulation. The vaccine was highly effective in preventing pregnancy (1 pregnancy in 1224 cycles ) at and above antibody titres of 50 ng/ml. Antibodies declined in course of time in absence of boosters, with conceptions occurring below 35 ng/ml titres indicating regain of fertility. Ability of antibodies to prevent pregnancy was confirmed by post coital tests. High avidity (10(10) M-1) and other characteristics of antibodies generated by the vaccine are described and compared with those induced by two other hCG vaccines having undergone Phase I trials. The antibody response of the HSD vaccine in humans is characterized predominantly to an epitope recognized by the monoclonals 206 and P3W80. The antibodies had low or no reactivity with the carboxy terminal peptide and 38-57 region peptide. Live recombinant vaccines expressing beta hCG as a membrane anchored peptide generated antibody response to hCG in all animals following a single injection.
CONCLUSIONS:

Reversible fertility control is feasible with the HSD-hCG vaccine without impairment of ovulation or disturbance of menstrual regularity. Suggestions have been made for further optimization of the vaccine, which include replacement of TT and DT by a panel of T non B determinants communicating with the entire MHC spectrum and development of recombinant vaccine expressing beta hCG along with membrane anchored carrier.


Which is what actually lead me to Depo-Provera. Sorry, I don't know the chemical makeup of Depo.

 

Ktoyou

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Hall of Fame
Depo-Provera is an old and dangerous drug; I find it baffling that it would still be used. Read here.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Wait, "Forced Vacations?" What is wrong with forced vacations? :idunno:














:chuckle:
 

Rusha

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Wait, "Forced Vacations?" What is wrong with forced vacations? :idunno:

In *this* case? The title of the OP. It's intentionally misleading. There is no force involved. If one doesn't wish to comply to the school's requirement of vaccinations (without a compelling/legitimate reason), they can choose another venue to teach their children.

The parent has the choice of saying no.
 

1PeaceMaker

New member
Usually people who have a religious reason for not getting a vaccine simply say, "My faith prevents us from using vaccinations." I have never heard of anybody with a religious objection saying they can't get the vaccine because it causes autism.

Of course not. There are many, many reasons a person might choose to avoid the vaccine. One reason is because of God's Old Testament commands to not touch unclean things, let alone eat them or otherwise put them into our bodies.

Defiling the conscience is a grave endangerment of the psyche of another person.

But also, there may be other health, scientific, ethical and medical history concerns that even though scientists and researchers admit are they are valid, policy makers still don't want to permit them to get a medical exemption.
 
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fzappa13

Well-known member
Idle theories... I just edited mine out. There are so many ways this vaccine push could be used against us, but I don't think that we will be forced.

But I think it's all just a replay of the 1800s again. All over the world, all the time, they are just playing the game to see if we will allow draconian vaccination laws. We must never say yes.

Notice that the anti-vaccination movement back then did not stop the eradication of smallpox even when they won the battle to insert a conscience clause.

You kinda slid right into the point I was trying to make about gradualism. It is best summated by the title to Bruce Cockburn's song "The Trouble With Normal" (is it always gets worse.) When SSN's were first introduced some of the more forward thinking in the Christian community pitched a fit and a clause was soon offered that prohibited using them for identification purposes.

A few decades later guess what happened?
 

1PeaceMaker

New member
You kinda slid right into the point I was trying to make about gradualism. It is best summated by the title to Bruce Cockburn's song "The Trouble With Normal" (is it always gets worse.) When SSN's were first introduced some of the more forward thinking in the Christian community pitched a fit and a clause was soon offered that prohibited using them for identification purposes.

A few decades later guess what happened?

I can think of a few other similar scenarios. Banking policy, taxes, social services, etc...

But humans have a long history of fighting forced inoculation and winning. I'm counting on it and praying for it.
 

1PeaceMaker

New member
You can declare victory and walk away. Its a good way to not deal with what people actually say.

I did deal with it. This is one of those times, CM, when I don't feel any readers who need to understand would miss what happened.

I would hope the readers would not simply dismiss your attempts to discuss and go no further than a mistake or two.

But forced vaccination is wrong. When mom/dad funded public school for me, they had agreeable laws. The only got as far as they did because people agreed with that way. Now they have the money and think they can mess w/us, and change what we've been paying for and agreeing to, with our money/public property in hand.

And Cali wants to FORCE homeschoolers. They can't run from that without getting CPS sicced on them. Unless they flee their homes. They won't let parents have feral children. They are wards of California if this goes through and folks don't rebel.
 

1PeaceMaker

New member
You could always do like I do and break the post up like this and respond to each point. You felt it was important enough to say, I respect you enough to take the time to reply to what you say. I may not agree with you, but I do try respect you enough to respond to your enter post.

I'm a mostly busy, one-handed (when holding baby) typing mommy, 7 kids, aged from 4 months to 14.7 yrs. Regardless of how much I respect you or am interested in what you say that's going to slow me down and make me seek brevity.

To others, what I say is accurate and on-point.

Those few should do a better job reading/defending you, then.

Forced as in strapped down is one thing. Required for school attendance is another.

Ever seen Forrest Gump? It's fiction but what the mother did to get Forest into a good PS makes my point just fine.

Parents will do immoral things to get their kids into a decent school. They would even risk their child's life. That's how important school is to them. (proof, making their kids hazard the travel back and forth) Asking them to force their child to get shots that may kill or harm them is like asking them to give sex to gain admittance for their child. Actually the former option is more grim, even if the forcers mean well.

I would never forcefully make anybody get a shot.

You wouldn't but Pakistan imprisons parents indefinitely if they don't give Polio to their children, leaving the children endangered alone. Which is identical to rape in my mind or worse. At least if they raped the parents the children would still be safe.

Given the potential of serious harm to all attendees of a public school, I have no problem with a school requiring vaccinations as a condition of attendance. With allowances made for reasonable exclusions based on a set of narrow exceptions.

But since you are not King CM, how do you propose resisting immoral vaccinations, should the conscience clause be removed?

There is a vaccination you would want a conscience clause for.
No, we will not be re-vaccinating. There is no need. The injections were completed so we are done.

But you are missing protection from the majority of HPV cancers! And the other ones now covered are more contagious and affect more than just girls. If you do get it, take it a month before your daughters do. Maybe get the booster first, just to be sure they won't be harmed.

The single largest hole in the study is that we have no idea what causes autism.

Even Wakefield didn't expect a declaration of a connection without further investigation. He was declaring his concern that he perceived a connection in the kids he saw and reported on it, that's all. To have his license taken over it was appalling. Regardless, I'm not siding with anyone who would inject kids with vaccines after becoming worried.

There is no blood test for it, no CT scan or other diagnostic test, it is diagnosed strictly based on behavior. How can one possible conclude the relationship between autism and anything given that we don't what causes autism in the first place?

The immune system prunes the brains of babies. That's why it's "immature" it is supposed to function differently.

I can't imagine why monkeying with the brain-pruner and changing it's functions prematurely would make a kid autistic. :doh:

Given what small pox did to populations, to families, I am sure that people would have lined up to get the vaccine if they knew it would prevent small pox.

They tried for decades to force it on them. Riots and all, they had to relent and give the conscience clause. Smallpox died out anyway.

There is a reason our forefathers spent so much time, money and effort developing a way to combat disease. It was not to control people or make them sick, it was to save them from death and blindness and parallelization and deafness and all the other things they witnessed in the world around them.

I agree. But they should not play God.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
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Ever seen Forrest Gump? It's fiction but what the mother did to get Forest into a good PS makes my point just fine.

Parents will do immoral things to get their kids into a decent school. They would even risk their child's life. That's how important school is to them. (proof, making their kids hazard the travel back and forth) Asking them to force their child to get shots that may kill or harm them is like asking them to give sex to gain admittance for their child. Actually the former option is more grim, even if the forcers mean well.
Vaccinations are not immoral. There is nothing inherently immoral about getting a shot to keep on healthy.

You wouldn't but Pakistan imprisons parents indefinitely if they don't give Polio to their children, leaving the children endangered alone. Which is identical to rape in my mind or worse. At least if they raped the parents the children would still be safe.
I'm glad your not prone to overstatements, that would make this conversation weird. I do not see Pakistan as being the same as the US in terms of vaccination. Pakistan is fighting a battle against Polio that the US fought and won a while ago. The US does have active laws to "imprison" people with active cases of typhoid until treatment is complete. Keeping them from spreading a truly deadly disease certainly does not sound at like rape or worse to me.

But since you are not King CM, how do you propose resisting immoral vaccinations, should the conscience clause be removed?
Since I don't see vaccines as immoral, I see no basis for resisting vaccines based on moral grounds. That is just me. I would oppose them based on medical necessity if needed. For others who do see them as immoral, they can refuse but they must bear the consequences of that refusal including being denied access to public schools if that is the will of the people. Sometimes taking the moral high road requires sacrifice.

There is a vaccination you would want a conscience clause for.
Nothing leaps to mind. I think the childhood vaccinations that we currently have do a very good job of keeping diseases under control.

But you are missing protection from the majority of HPV cancers! And the other ones now covered are more contagious and affect more than just girls. If you do get it, take it a month before your daughters do. Maybe get the booster first, just to be sure they won't be harmed.
None the less, we will not be re-vaccinating. As to my taking the vaccine, there would be no reason to. Older man in a monogamous relationship. I am at no risk of contracting or spreading HPV at this point in my life.

Even Wakefield didn't expect a declaration of a connection without further investigation. He was declaring his concern that he perceived a connection in the kids he saw and reported on it, that's all. To have his license taken over it was appalling. Regardless, I'm not siding with anyone who would inject kids with vaccines after becoming worried.
And he lied. He flat out lied. He deserved to lose his liscens as he completely violated the Hippocratic oath to cause no harm.

The immune system prunes the brains of babies. That's why it's "immature" it is supposed to function differently.

I can't imagine why monkeying with the brain-pruner and changing it's functions prematurely would make a kid autistic. :doh:
So it is your contention that vaccines attack the brain, is that correct?

They tried for decades to force it on them. Riots and all, they had to relent and give the conscience clause. Smallpox died out anyway.
And a whole lot of people died miserable deaths.

I agree. But they should not play God.
They aren't. God gave us brains created in His image to learn and understand the world around us. To control and use it as we see fit. One of those ways is medicine and, specifically, vaccines. I do not vaccines as inherently immoral or in any way contradictory to anything God has said in either the Old or New Testament.
 

elohiym

Well-known member
God gave us brains created in His image to learn and understand the world around us. To control and use it as we see fit.

He did not give us "brains created in His image," and did not give us intelligence to control and use the world as "we" see fit. That's just more flawed utilitarian thinking and you failing to distinguish between mind and brain.

One of those ways is medicine and, specifically, vaccines.

Those are man's ways, not God's ways. The more I understand the different diseases and the vaccinations allegedly against them, the more I understand vaccines are dangerous and why God would oppose them.

I do not vaccines as inherently immoral or in any way contradictory to anything God has said in either the Old or New Testament.

I'll just quote my exchange with another poster to make my point:
I like to look at it this way: if Moses had asked God what to do about a contagious disease like measles, I'm fairly certain a "measles party" and a vaccination with a live attenuated virus would have been forbidden by the law (touching, eating, injecting unclean things). God's law required quarantine for contagious disease to prevent spread of infection. I believe His way would work better to eliminate measles.

If God had him boot the girls out of camp for something as seemingly minor as their monthly inconvenience then you are probably right.
 

CabinetMaker

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He did not give us "brains created in His image," and did not give us intelligence to control and use the world as "we" see fit. That's just more flawed utilitarian thinking and you failing to distinguish between mind and brain.
We were created in his image. I think that means we have the ability to understand God's act of creation and to use His creation to meet our wants and needs.

Those are man's ways, not God's ways. The more I understand the different diseases and the vaccinations allegedly against them, the more I understand vaccines are dangerous and why God would oppose them.
I would not agree. I do not think God intends that we have to suffer disease as He has provided for us a way to avoid them. While I agree that vaccines are not risk free, many of the vaccines we use today are safer than the risks carried by getting infected with the wild strain of the disease.



I'll just quote my exchange with another poster to make my point:
I would think that God's answer would be somewhat different today.
 
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