ECT For Those who Think MAD to be False: What is the Gospel?

[turbosixx]

There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
-1 Peter 3:21-22

I agree with the verse but can you help me understand how this agrees with what you said “Baptism is a way to express the change in life that results from a decision to follow Christ.”

The passage says ”eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us – baptism”
Baptism saves us because as the verse goes on to say it’s “the answer of a good conscience toward God”

That’s what I find disturbing. Today baptism has all but been done away with, so today all you have to do to be saved is to “believe”. That is obviously lacking so then they will tell you to say this prayer. This imaginary “prayer of salvation” is exactly what the bible tells us baptism is, an “answer, inquiry, request, appeal” to God for a good conscience.

That’s why those who believe are baptized in the name of Jesus. The apostles baptized believers and so did Paul.

 

[turbosixx]

Some MADs end up so focused on what they erroneously perceive as some sort of a competition with others that they end up poor at pointing out some of these finer distinctions; if...they were ever aware of such finer distinctions...to begin with.

Happens both whenever rushes into some sort of a perceived conclusion and or a competition :chuckle:

MAD is not un-susceptible to the railings of such expert amateurs either.

Keep that in mind TOLers - not all MADs are such rank amateurs.

Yep, we’re all at different levels but hopefully growing.

Israel's was a Prophesied Grace...towards its' Prophesied intent.

The Body's is a Mystery Grace...towards its' Unprophesied intent.

This is what doesn’t make sense to me and maybe you can shed some light on it. When I compare Israel and the body, which is the greater? In the body everyone is the same no matter what your physical birth, Jew or Gentile, one new man. Everyone in the body has forgiveness of sins and the hope of eternal life. Outside of the body there is only death. How can the greatest thing every that has been around for 2,000 years have no prophecy?

Does Israel have the choice to become Christian or stay a Jew and wait for the promised kingdom?

 

[Danoh]

I agree with the verse but can you help me understand how this agrees with what you said “Baptism is a way to express the change in life that results from a decision to follow Christ.”

The passage says ”eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us – baptism”
Baptism saves us because as the verse goes on to say it’s “the answer of a good conscience toward God”

That’s what I find disturbing. Today baptism has all but been done away with, so today all you have to do to be saved is to “believe”. That is obviously lacking so then they will tell you to say this prayer. This imaginary “prayer of salvation” is exactly what the bible tells us baptism is, an “answer, inquiry, request, appeal” to God for a good conscience.

That’s why those who believe are baptized in the name of Jesus. The apostles baptized believers and so did Paul.

Sorry to say, but you and SimpleMan strike me as being either saved but confused, or still lost and confused.

That bothers me for you both.

Could you each lay out what you each first believed, together with what you later came to understand?

I mean that. I'd like to know.

I'm concerned about you both.

Never mind what some right away turn answers they disagree with into - their opportunity to gloat and all the other sorts of stupidities of some.

I'd really like to know.

As for myself.

I was never caught up in the idea that there was something I had to do.

I was fortunate in that regard.

The first thing I heard and understood was that while I was yet a sinner, Christ died for my sins, Romans 5:8.

I...believed that.

Plain and simple.

At which point; according to Scripture...the following became my eternal reality...

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

It is why I am ever quoting the following to the works based crowd...

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Thank you both, in advance.

And to anyone else who holds a same or different first, and then later understanding, who cares to share it that others might either benefit from, or challenge it...out of a heart of actual concern for others...not out of one of "well I showed him/her a thing or two..."

 

[Lighthouse]

I agree with the verse but can you help me understand how this agrees with what you said “Baptism is a way to express the change in life that results from a decision to follow Christ.”

The passage says ”eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us – baptism”
Baptism saves us because as the verse goes on to say it’s “the answer of a good conscience toward God”

That last line you quoted right there. That is what agrees with what I said.

That’s what I find disturbing. Today baptism has all but been done away with, so today all you have to do to be saved is to “believe”. That is obviously lacking so then they will tell you to say this prayer. This imaginary “prayer of salvation” is exactly what the bible tells us baptism is, an “answer, inquiry, request, appeal” to God for a good conscience.

That’s why those who believe are baptized in the name of Jesus. The apostles baptized believers and so did Paul.

Paul also wrote Romans 10:9-10.

 

[turbosixx]

Sorry to say, but you and SimpleMan strike me as being either saved but confused, or still lost and confused.

That bothers me for you both.

Thanks for your concern. That is honestly why I’m here, to have others shoot holes in what I believe. I believe ONLY the truth will set us free. If someone can shoot holes in my understanding then I don’t understand the truth and am probably lost and I want to know before it’s too late.

Could you each lay out what you each first believed, together with what you later came to understand?

I was saved when I was 13. What I came to realize listening to gospel preaching is that my soul was lost and I was dead in my sins unless I became a Christian. What I understood then and now almost 40 years later is the same. In order to become a Christian I had to do the same thing those in scripture were told to do and did to be added to the body.

As for myself.

I was never caught up in the idea that there was something I had to do.

It is why I am ever quoting the following to the works based crowd...

I agree with what Romans says but to me you are missing one very important detail. Paul is comparing the law of Moses with the law of Christ. That’s why he says works “of the law” and not just works in general. He is specifying a specific set of works that cannot save.


When we are told what the judgement will look like, how are the people judged? I don’t know of anywhere in scripture where it’s what they believe only what they do?

Even in Romans
Rom. 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

 

[turbosixx]

That last line you quoted right there. That is what agrees with what I said.

So is that the only part of the passage you believe?


If you look at the verse and compare it to Romans 6 they agree.
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-.....-through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

Paul also wrote Romans 10:9-10.

Yes he did. I'm not sure what your point is.

 

[Lighthouse]

So is that the only part of the passage you believe?

it's the only part that applies in the dispensation of grace.

If you look at the verse and compare it to Romans 6 they agree.
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-.....-through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

Different baptism.

Yes he did. I'm not sure what your point is.

That his message was different than Peter's.

 

[turbosixx]

I am simply a Bible-believing Christian, who believes that the book of Acts was never intended to be closed out. The type of church they were should be our model and example.

:thumb:
Strongly agree

The conversion accounts that were recorded there intentionally (by God's intent) to show that no matter the category you find yourself in, the obedience to the Gospel is the same. The Gospel is the work of Calvary, but our OBEDIENCE to the Gospel is essential. 1Thessalonians 1:8 states that wrath is reserved for all that don't OBEY the Gospel, and obedience ALWAYS involves action.

:thumb:
Strongly agree

The actions of essentially every conversion recorded in Acts involved repenting and turning to God, getting baptized in water, and being filled with the Holy Spirit, and walking in the power of the Spirit. Those actions are OBEYING the death, burial and resurrection.

It is no different today.

I'm with you up to being filled with the Holy Spirit. I would suggest to you that spiritual gift were given through the laying of hands except for 2 special exceptions, the apostles and the first Gentiles. Everyone else got them from the laying of hands.

Acts 8:18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,

That's why Paul wanted to go to the Roman church.
Rom. 1:11 For I long to see you so that I may impart some spiritual gift to you, that you may be established;

 

[turbosixx]

it's the only part that applies in the dispensation of grace.

That doesn't scare you that you are basically taking a sharpie and lining through scripture and only taking what you want.

Paul wrote to these same people. Did he correct Peter and tell them "baptism cannot save you"?

Different baptism.

How is it different? Are you saying having sin, being buried in water and then raised a new creature doesn't look like Christ's D,B & R?

That his message was different than Peter's.

I've already shown that they taught the same thing, Jesus is the Christ. We can also see they both baptized the believers.

Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

 

[Lighthouse]

That doesn't scare you that you are basically taking a sharpie and lining through scripture and only taking what you want.

That is not at all what I've done. I have weighed the things that differ. I have studied the Scriptures and found MAD to be clearly evident.

Paul wrote to these same people. Did he correct Peter and tell them "baptism cannot save you"?

When did Paul write to the same people as Peter?

How is it different? Are you saying having sin, being buried in water and then raised a new creature doesn't look like Christ's D,B & R?

It is a shadow of it. But being baptized in water is not the same as being baptized in His death.:nono:

I've already shown that they taught the same thing, Jesus is the Christ.

You can't seriously be this stupid.

Just because some things are the same does not mean everything is the same.

If you build two apartment buildings on the same cement foundation that doesn't make them the same building.

We can also see they both baptized the believers.

Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

So? Do you have a point?

 

[turbosixx]

That is not at all what I've done. I have weighed the things that differ. I have studied the Scriptures and found MAD to be clearly evident.

From my point of view, Mad has all but torn out the books of the NT that Paul did not write. Those books are written to believers followers of Christ.

When did Paul write to the same people as Peter?

2 Pt.3:15 ...; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote unto you;

Did he tell them baptism cannot save them when Peter said it did?

It is a shadow of it. But being baptized in water is not the same as being baptized in His death.:nono:

Romans 6 says it is, shadow is a likeness.
5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection;

Just because some things are the same does not mean everything is the same.

If you build two apartment buildings on the same cement foundation that doesn't make them the same building.

They are both housing.

If they are not the same, did Paul preach one thing to Jews and another to Gentiles?

Why can't they be the same? All believers are saved by the same D,B & R of Jesus.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

An insurance salesman talks to a baseball team then the next day to a football team. Each time he uses terms they are familar with to get his points across but he is selling the exact same policy.

The Jews had 2,000 years of history and a law that was a tutor to lead them to Christ. Anyone preaching to them is going to use terms they are familiar with that the Gentiles would not be.

One foundation built by the apostles (plural)
Eph. 2:20 being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone;

So? Do you have a point?

Yes, my point is Peter and Paul taught the same thing, Jesus. Those that heard and believed did the same thing in response, they were baptized. Here Paul baptized believers.
Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

Just as Jesus said for "every creature"
15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved;


The same.

 

[Lighthouse]

From my point of view, Mad has all but torn out the books of the NT that Paul did not write. Those books are written to believers followers of Christ.

1. Your point of view is wrong.
2. Not all followers of Christ were in the Body of Christ at that time. Peter did not write to all Christians and neither did Paul.

2 Pt.3:15 ...; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote unto you;

Did he tell them baptism cannot save them when Peter said it did?

What did Paul write to them? And why were the things he wrote hard to understand?

And since it seems this is Peter's audience then no, Paul did not tell them that about themselves. But he may have told them that about the Body.

Romans 6 says it is, shadow is a likeness.
5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection;

:doh:

It is symbolic, which means it doesn't look exactly like it and is not exactly like it. Being baptized is not like dying on the cross, being buried and rising again after three days.

They are both housing.

Really Sherlock?

If they are not the same, did Paul preach one thing to Jews and another to Gentiles?

Paul's message differing from that of the 12 does not logically proceed to Paul's message being different based on the ethnicity of the audience. Stop being an idiot.

Why can't they be the same? All believers are saved by the same D,B & R of Jesus.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

An insurance salesman talks to a baseball team then the next day to a football team. Each time he uses terms they are familar with to get his points across but he is selling the exact same policy.

The Jews had 2,000 years of history and a law that was a tutor to lead them to Christ. Anyone preaching to them is going to use terms they are familiar with that the Gentiles would not be.

One foundation built by the apostles (plural)
Eph. 2:20 being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone;

The messages are different because the policy is different. Take it up with God; He's the one that decided on different policies.

And if they weren't different why were the circumcision provoked to jealousy?

Yes, my point is Peter and Paul taught the same thing, Jesus. Those that heard and believed did the same thing in response, they were baptized. Here Paul baptized believers.
Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

Just as Jesus said for "every creature"
15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved;

The same.

Some things the same ≠ all things the same.

 

[turbosixx]

Stop being an idiot.

Have a nice day.

 

[Lighthouse]

Have a nice day.

So that's it? You're just going to run away because you don't like the way I communicate?

No wonder you haven't made any headway in this discussion...

 

[dodge]

So that's it? You're just going to run away because you don't like the way I communicate?

No wonder you haven't made any headway in this discussion...

He stopped for the same reason I did ! You are a jerk.

 

[Lighthouse]

He stopped for the same reason I did ! You are a jerk.

Because I'm honest? Because I tell you when you're being stupid, or are a lying scum? Should I limit it to those things Jesus said about people like you? Would that make it better?

Here's an idea, if you think I am truly in the wrong report me. If the staff agree with you that I am being unnecessarily harsh they'll let me know. And if they agree with you I'll tone it down.

 

[dodge]

Because I'm honest? Because I tell you when you're being stupid, or are a lying scum? Should I limit it to those things Jesus said about people like you? Would that make it better?

Here's an idea, if you think I am truly in the wrong report me. If the staff agree with you that I am being unnecessarily harsh they'll let me know. And if they agree with you I'll tone it down.

It has nothing to do with being honest.

It is probably because you violate every instruction in scripture on how a christian is supposed to treat others.

I don't report ever. I just ignore or treat you as you treat others.

 

[SimpleMan77]

So that's it? You're just going to run away because you don't like the way I communicate?

No wonder you haven't made any headway in this discussion...

[MENTION=2492]Lighthouse[/MENTION] you're the one who runs away by refusing to answer a simple question on another thread. Here it is:

Say a guy is living with his girlfriend outside of marriage. In today's culture many people have never heard it's wrong.

He hears the word preached, and the preacher says "your salvation has nothing to do with your works". He believes, and one day as he is reading the Bible he reads that fornication is a sin, a work of the flesh.

He come to you and says "I see in scripture that God says fornication is a sin. I want to please Him, but I am afraid if I take steps to change my life to be obedient to God's desires I will be guilty of trying to become justified by works".

What do you tell him?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[turbosixx]

So that's it? You're just going to run away because you don't like the way I communicate?

No wonder you haven't made any headway in this discussion...

I was enjoying the debate until your remark. I'm here to challenge my and others understanding of truth. If someone can shoot holes in what I understand to be truth, I want to know.

There are many divisions in "Christianity" and many of them are based on very important fundamentals that determine salvation. The believers of each can convincingly prove their position using scripture and believe they know the truth. They all can't be right and I'd say most are wrong and lost. What I see is a failure on their part to really challenge what they believe. I believe they're not being honest with themselves for whatever reason and are content where they're at.

As for the way you communicate, I'd suggest you read more of Paul's writings. You don't come off as someone who really wants to be a follower of Christ.
24 And the Lord’s servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing, 25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will.

I was simply going to stop bothering you because you obviously have it all figured out if I'm the idiot.

 

[Lighthouse]

It has nothing to do with being honest.

It is probably because you violate every instruction in scripture on how a christian is supposed to treat others.

I don't report ever. I just ignore or treat you as you treat others.

1. You should treat others how you want to be treated, not how they treat you.
2. What instructions am I violating?

@Lighthouse you're the one who runs away by refusing to answer a simple question on another thread.

I didn't run away. I'm still participating in that thread.

Here it is:

Say a guy is living with his girlfriend outside of marriage. In today's culture many people have never heard it's wrong.

He hears the word preached, and the preacher says "your salvation has nothing to do with your works". He believes, and one day as he is reading the Bible he reads that fornication is a sin, a work of the flesh.

He come to you and says "I see in scripture that God says fornication is a sin. I want to please Him, but I am afraid if I take steps to change my life to be obedient to God's desires I will be guilty of trying to become justified by works".

What do you tell him?

I'll answer in that thread.

I was enjoying the debate until your remark. I'm here to challenge my and others understanding of truth. If someone can shoot holes in what I understand to be truth, I want to know.

Your stubborn ignorance is making it difficult for you to see the holes. I'm trying to alert you to the fact that you're being stubbornly ignorant. You have to be aware of that before you can do something about it and then be able to see the holes.

I was on the other side of this debate just over a decade ago when I joined TOL in 2003. I listened and read the Scripture and my mind was changed. I want the same for you.

There are many divisions in "Christianity" and many of them are based on very important fundamentals that determine salvation. The believers of each can convincingly prove their position using scripture and believe they know the truth. They all can't be right and I'd say most are wrong and lost. What I see is a failure on their part to really challenge what they believe. I believe they're not being honest with themselves for whatever reason and are content where they're at.

I can't think of a single issue where MAD differs with most of Christendom that affects salvation. Except that some believe baptism is necessary for salvation and MAD does not. But we don't think anyone is going to Hell for believing it does.

As for the way you communicate, I'd suggest you read more of Paul's writings. You don't come off as someone who really wants to be a follower of Christ.
24 And the Lord’s servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing, 25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will.

I was simply going to stop bothering you because you obviously have it all figured out if I'm the idiot.

Did anyone who is a stalwart follower of God as recorded in the Bible insult others? If and when were they in the wrong? Did Jesus ever do it?

I only have so much patience for willful ignorance and ego. My behavior and attitude is much different toward those I believe are simply uneducated but willing to learn.

It is those who don't know anything about the subject but act like they do and reject any correction that I call out. And they way I addressed you in the instance in question was to implore you to stop doing what you're doing and look at the evidence of Scripture instead of relying on the words of men.